[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Not sure what is up with the open mouth icon thing as you originated the request on an alternative, and it seems all of the replies like the suggestion.

 

You asked for it, it was discussed (including your humorous responses), then got what you asked for...

now it's instantly a surprise?

 

If that little icon is meant to show astonishment that your request was actually acted upon, fantastic.

If it is meant to show surprise in the change, it's seems like a 180 on your previous position.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

No effect on the SLD.

Merchandise, roster titles, or anything like that would change.

 

Just the title on the TFE CRL page to allow those here to personally refer to their SL's as something a bit different than the SLD SL's, in casual conversation.

It also better encompass the variety of characters listed under TFE: SL.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Swiched DS from "Dark Force Users" to "Dark Side Adept".

 

As of right now, I'll go with SL: Sith Legends, which you can change later if you decide to.

 

 

* I thought about DarthTagion's suggestion of Slinky Lingerie but that would require some drastic changes in costume requirements.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

I would think that it is a character which is officially recognized as entering the Sith order, and as such is a devout practitioner of that dark side religion.

 

 

A note regarding the updated term of SL:

I think it would be proper to have, on the main CRL category list, a term that better reflects the

multitude of characters within it.

 

"Saber Lover" was suggested, but I'm not sure if that is a formidable enough title (?)

Like mentioned, the first that came to my mind was "Sith League".

(But, my thoughts keep drifting toward either a sports league or the extraordinary gentlemen)

 

Perhaps "SL: Sith Legends" ?

 

* Legend (n)

A person whose fame or notoriety makes them a source of exaggerated or romanticized tales or exploits.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Hey Steve,

 

Have a scan over the last few posts.

Under this idea, Starkiller (all Starkillers) would remain SL.

 

I also mentioned the subject of retroactively removing what Disney might now consider non-canon characters, and that those of us on the Membership team would not even think of doing such a thing.

 

Basically confirming what you posted.

 

 

* I am also glad that you mentioned being one of the first to suggest a secondary designation for non-sith characters... and that it was 3 years ago.

 

A re-evaluation of the designations (legion wide) is something that members have been calling for for quite some time, and as time passed the situation became even larger. We chose, this year, to finally take action on this long standing request to better organize characters and prepare for the future.

Something that was long overdue.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Thanks a lot for the efforts.

Likely no need to ask further details from Mr.Avellone.

With this latest idea, they would not come into play.

 

I wanted to give everyone a chance to catch up, before moving on.

I think they have, and I will get to work on it.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

I'm glad you mentioned this.

 

I was going to suggest ... (and of course Thomas has already given it some thought)

that for fun, either publicly or privately, you might consider a new meaning for SL.

 

The first that came to my mind was "Sith League".

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

I do not have the game "Knights of the Old Republic II", but from all of the reference that I do have access to,

Visas's story begins with the devastation of Katarr and she is immediately taken as the apprentice of Darth Nihilus. I would think that (like Galen) being an apprentice of a Sith Master, by default, places that character within the Sith order.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

I believe Galen was first seen in the "Force Unleashed" graphic novel, which was release immediately prior to the video game.

The first of his outfits is the TIE Training Gear, and he is "knighted" as Vader's apprentice within the very first few pages.

This would mean (and please correct me if I am mistaken) that the Training Gear, and all costumes afterward would be considered Sith outfits.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

If it is correct that Visas being the apprentice Darth Nihilus makes her Sith...Yes.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

After some more discussion with Thomas, the membership team, various PM's, and all of you, I believe

a revised version of the above "relaxed idea" is in agreement by all that I have spoken with.

 

Please let me know your thoughts on this:

 

SL = All Sith characters ... (Lord or not Lord makes no difference)

DS = Dark Force characters that are not Sith.

DZ = Characters that are none of the above.

 

I would have to perform another round of research, on each character, to be completely sure,

but I believe that right off the top... Visas, the various Strakillers, and Lumiya would head back.

 

I'm liking it.

Keeps all Sith together, keeps all non-sith together, no need to track down the smaller technical details in the future, and provides for easy organizing of those new characters that are inevitably on the horizon.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Someone just sent in the question...

 

"When Disney redefines what is and what is not canon, will you be retroactively removing characters from the rosters?... Just curious."

 

I am certain that I can speak for the entire membership team when I say,

We would not even dream of doing such a thing.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

* I must first say, I'm so happy you pointed out the word "chatting".

I'm hoping that no one gets the impression there is anger involved in any aspect.

 

 

Some side info on a few of the points mention just above:

 

The CRL's...

 

They were originally intended to by "Costume reference guides", open to at least some interpretation.

During the last administration, an individual became a bit overzealous and made them strict requirements.

I have, over the course of the last year sought out the opinions of each and every detachment leader, as well as many GML's, in an effort to relax the strict language that was added, over the two years prior.

 

For example... changing the instances of the word "Required" to "Recommended".

and, the phrase "must have"... to "should have".

 

As of this day I have received not one disagreement with this idea.

I believe Thomas is also a supporter of this.

 

As it stands right now, meeting the base CRL's are a mandatory requirement for acceptance.

This includes the "rule" that if there are changes to a CRL, those members have a year to make alterations, or risk having that costume removed from their roster.

Personally, I have not and have no desire to, hunt down and remove costumes that do not meet the latest CRL standards. First, because of what I mentioned above, and second... I believe that all costumers in the legion strive to have excellent costumes. They, and those around them, continually make changes and updates,if and when they are able.

 

I have also made great progress in bringing back to the detachments the ability to decide what is or is not included in a character CRL. The LMO team has made over 1500 changes, additions and updates to the various CRL's this past year... With he exception of photos (that come from individual members), 99% of those updates have come from within their respective detachments.

 

Some detachments insist that the CRL's be very strict, even with minute details.

Others are fine with relaxed standards.

 

As stated, I feel that if those above words and phrases are altered back to their original meaning, a CRL can be as strict or as loose as any detachment feels they should be, because they will once again be GML "Guides" and not the "be all - end all" of costume requirements.

 

Grandfathering...

As The Clone Emperor and DarthTagion mentioned, it was determined to be a poor solution quite a long time ago, and I agree with that assessment.

 

Letters...

If all goes well, we have a new legion applicant building a "Force Hound".

Another dark side force user, which is not a Sith Lord.

"Preparing for the future" not only pertains to the upcoming films and television shows, it is happening

(and needed) right now.

 

 

What else...

 

Wikis...

Although information listed in a user editable wiki is often referenced by many, I personally do not rely on them. I make great effort to track down the original, individual sources of said information.

I do use the wiki's to begin a search, but only to collect the "notes" which are listed at the bottom of the pages, to verify the original information.

 

I'll leave this very casual chat post, with this...

 

If a few of you (we have not heard any word from the other 95+ now DS members)

so desire to call your characters Sith Lords, please submit... anything.

We'll take a half sentence from the third level of a video game.

(Sidious calling Maul "Lord", in the movie, was enough to keep him as SL)

A passage from a role playing game instruction book, the editors notes from a novel... anything.

 

The only character to have been moved back so far is one that I personally presented the information for.

I have tried hard to find even the word "Lord" associated with any of the remaining characters, and just can not do it.

Someone mentioned above... "We are the experts".

If this information does exist, you are the most likely to be the ones to know where to look.

If you can't find it... no one can.

 

I can promise this.... If any info is presented, no matter how obscure (although not from a wiki ,

I will make sure the buttons are clicked, the moment it happens.

 

* Also please consider the idea I had mentioned earlier, of making SL "All sith"...and DS "All non-sith".

The Membership team liked the idea.

(The "complications" I spoke of involve adjusting the DZ's accordingly)

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

I have Star Wars Tales #24.

It is a collection of unrelated short stories.

 

The Visas Marr story is titled "Unseen,Unheard" and is 6 pages in length.

Here it is in its entirety:

 

Pg1

Pg2

Pg3

Pg4

Pg5

Pg6

 

I'm thinking the quote from the ComicVine Wiki might be an internet user's misplaced edit.

Maybe Heavy1973's email reply will have some more info.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Maul:

He was discussed, but it was pointed out that in the movie, in the scene after Padme begs the Gungans for help, Sidious referrers to him directly as "Lord Maul".

 

Visas Marr:

Can you point to the source that ComicVine is pulling that reference from?

 

"...should each of Starkiller's costumes be looked at separately due to the time and power/training at which they were worn?"

I would think yes, and is the reason I feel (based on the reference I've shown above) that the Sith Stalker armor should in fact be considered a Sith Lord. This particular incarnation of the character does have valid reference as being referred to as such.

 

 

 

* In an dedicated effort to find a common ground with those who are the most displeased, like mentioned above, we are currently discussing the pro's and con's of the idea of using a relaxed standard.

This being "Sith -vs- Non-Sith", rather than "Sith Lord -vs- Non-Sith Lord".

 

Although "technically" incorrect, (in regard to the term "Sith Lord") it would move several characters back, be they Sith Lord or not.

But, it raises some other issues that would first need to be ironed out.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Does the canon/non-canon issue make a difference?

If it is an already accepted costume within the legion canon/non-canon has no bearing.

 

You can read the "Character Approval Guide" here:

http://www.501st.com/databank/Costuming ... erApproval

(More specifically, the part which explains "N: Non-canon, materials")

 

I know the DLC was a 're-imagined' storyline but, in that storyline SS is a "Lord" and as such, should be bestowed the SL designation IMHO.

I hear ya', and it is exactly what I mentioned above.

 

So what you are saying those who have that the shirts, the license plates, the window decals, the patches, the 'permanent' Tattoos, etc. are SOoL.

Honestly, we can not make decisions and determinations based on those criteria.

Those who have been around long enough will remember "SP - Sandperson".

That was my former designation as a Tusken... Now it is DZ.

Or perhaps when the custom Madalorians were removed from TX. (and the legion altogether)

(TX stands for "Trooper X" and contained all the custom characters)

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

LeMaxim,

For being relatively new you are hitting the nail on the head.

 

Check out this 14 page thread of the Death Watch costumers calling for a more accurate designation.

http://www.501st.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

 

(I encourage anyone and everyone to also check it out)

 

If you ship to the last page, you will see that I wrote almost the exact post... back in April.

You are also correct in that it is an issue that spans the entire legion classification system.

The SL - Non SL is simply the first to undergo an update as it has the characters which have been called into question the most often and for the most amount of time.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

The idea of using a broader and less restrictive criteria has been suggested.

Widening the scope would move a couple/ few characters back to SL (including Lumiya and Marek), and the Acolytes would remain unchanged. I can't yet guarantee it's success, as it would technically be incorrect (considering SL = Sith Lord), and at the same time, I am not an all encompassing decider.

But, I am all for a plan that better prepares for the future, more accurately describes designations, and makes the most people happy as possible.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

I am trying hard to find a reference for Galen Marek: Starkiller being a Sith Lord, but it keeps coming back to him never passing apprentice...

 

Two passages Reportedly from the The Force Unleashed novel:

 

Marek's initial attitude towards Darth Sidious was very detached. On one hand he revered him as the Sith Lord who destroyed the Jedi Order. On the other hand, he was completely devoted to the goal of one day standing at Vader's side as a true Sith Lord. To that end, he trained for years in the hopes of eventually helping Darth Vader in assassinating Sidious so that they could rule the galaxy together as master and apprentice. However, this changed when Sidious "discovered" Marek and ordered his execution, taking sadistic delight in his suffering.

 

Marek learned how Sidious had ordered the death of his father and his own abduction, and how he had in fact been Marek's true Master, using Vader only as a proxy. The revelation proved to be the final straw for the apprentice. Attacking Sidious, he drew heavily on his anger to subdue the Sith Lord, almost falling to the dark side all over again. However, he repented in the end, rejecting his hatred and turning away from the Sith.

 

 

 

This is as close as it appears to come:

 

 

The Force Unleashed: Ultimate Sith Edition:

 

"Starkiller in the non-canonical dark side ending" (...Of The Force Unleashed video game)

 

The storyline of the non-canon dark side alternate ending is continued in two downloadable content missions, which act as alternate versions of Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope and Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.

 

In the alternate ending of The Force Unleashed video game, Marek choses to finish off Vader, avenging the murder of his father and the two betrayals on himself.

He bore six lightsabers on his belt—his original lightsaber, Darth Vader's lightsaber, Rahm Kota's lightsaber, half of Darth Maul's lightsaber, his new Sith lightsaber and the severed end of Kazdan Paratus's long-handled lightsaber.

 

The Tatooine mission features Galen Marek, now referred to as "Lord Starkiller", hunting down C-3PO and R2-D2 after an alternate version of the destruction of Tantive IV.

 

 

* These state that the entire character "Lord Starkiller" is non-canon.

 

** However... Although Non-canon, the "Sith stalker Armor" is an accepted costume within the legion and is referred to as "Lord" within this alternate ending, so I would support that it falls under "SL" and will be happy to take this info back to the rest of the team.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

This is something else that we should probably clarify, and do shout out is you disagree with this...

 

 

Sith Overlord: Highest ranking and the most superior Sith title posible.

 

Dark Lord: Recognized leader/leaders of the Order of the Sith Lords.

 

Sith Lord: Title that is bestowed on members of various Sith Orders who have achieved great knowledge and strength in the dark side.

 

Darth: Title given to someone by their master, after being acknowledged as part of the Sith order.

 

Dark Jedi: Jedi that either rejected light-side teachings in favor of the dark side or Jedi that were taught by Dark Jedi and thus became dark themselves.

 

 

* Like already expressed, if there are sources which show that any of these characters had bestowed upon them the title of Sith Lord, please show it as it will clarify that they should be designated as such.

 

edit:

Dialog from a video game, quote from a comic book, passage from a novel... anything.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Galen Marek / Starkiller:

 

Here are several quotes from the same Galen Marek page referenced above and a big part of why he was included in the list :

 

Galen Marek, codenamed Starkiller, was a male Human apprentice of the Sith Lord Darth Vader.

Vader nonetheless trained Marek as a secret apprentice during his own apprenticeship to Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord who ruled the galaxy as Emperor Palpatine.

 

With his childhood memories suppressed and his original identity forgotten, Marek only knew himself as the Dark Lord's apprentice; a Sith assassin who operated under the codename "Starkiller".

 

In addition to the assassination of numerous targets that included Vader's many rivals, the apprentice trained for years in preparation for the day when he would be ready to aid his Master in a confrontation with Darth Sidious.

 

This singular goal became Starkiller's obsession as he longed to become a true Sith Lord. The pinnacle of Starkiller's training saw him deployed against Jedi targets for the first time in his life in 3 BBY...

 

Elated at the prospect of finally fulfilling his sole purpose in life, Starkiller rendezvoused with Vader on the Executor only to be betrayed and severely wounded by his Master who claimed that Sidious's spies had discovered the existence of the secret apprentice.

 

Pressured by the Emperor, Vader demonstrated his loyalty by seemingly killing Starkiller. In truth, the betrayal was a ruse that allowed Vader to save his apprentice's life.

 

Upon Starkiller's full recovery in 2 BBY, Vader revealed his contingency plan: the creation of a full-scale rebellion against the Galactic Empire. The apprentice was instructed by his Master to assemble an army of rebels and dissidents.

 

Darth Sidious with Starkiller's aid, the former apprentice journeyed to the incomplete Death Star and intended to rescue his new-found allies from execution. Abandoning the persona of Starkiller, he re-embraced his Jedi heritage as Galen Marek through the partial recovery of his suppressed memories.

 

* "Former apprentice" meaning he was no longer Vader's apprentice, not that he had advanced.

**Before becoming a Sith Lord, he returned to the light side.

 

Sidious hoped to claim Marek as his new apprentice and goaded him to kill Vader. Instead, Marek attacked the Emperor in a move to provide the senators with enough time to escape the Death Star. His plan succeeded, but ultimately cost the apprentice his life.

 

*** Marek is now dead without advancing past apprentice.

 

Darth Vader preserved his former apprentice's corpse as a genetic template for the creation of a more powerful and obedient version of the original Starkiller.

 

 

Returning to the quote mentioned above...

 

However at the end of it, Vader ordered Starkiller to kneel before him. Believing that his time had come to an end, Starkiller obeyed and waited for death. Instead, Darth Vader formally "knighted" Starkiller, officially recognizing him for the first time as his apprentice, something that Starkiller always believed himself to be. He declared Starkiller's training complete, and dispatched him on his first test...

 

I believe this 1/2 sentence is a poorly written edit... by whomever wrote it... when the passage is intended to express that Vader formally recognized Starkiller as his fully competent and complete apprentice.

Confirming what Starkiller had already believed he was.

( I do not believe Sith Lords give other Sith Lords tests. But they do give their apprentice's tests)

 

Here is the photo which corresponds to that very passage:

"Starkiller is given the title of apprentice."

 

 

It was already clearly stated that Starkiller

A: Abandoned the Dark Side while still an apprentice.

B: Was killed while still an a apprentice.

 

If those earlier passages are incorrect and conflict with a legitimate source that states Starkiller was a full Sith Lord, again present them here....please.

 

The intent is not to categorize characters just "because we feel like it".

If there are definable reference sources that state one thing or another (beyond a wiki article that can be edited by nearly anybody) bring them forth.

I absolutely encourage it.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Lumiya...

 

I found the WotC supplement on archive.org.

But unfortunately it is of no help.

 

Here is the entire Lumiya reference :

 

Behind the Threat: The Sith, Part 1

 

Although the Rule of Two prevented Vader from taking on a true apprentice, he did pass his teachings to pupils, notably the Dark Lady of the Sith, Lumiya. She trained several apprentices during this era, but they are not truly Sith because Lumiya herself does not become full-fledged Sith until her training by Vergere in the Legacy era.

 

In The New Jedi Order era, the Sith are all but extinct. It is only through the training of Vergere that Lumiya becomes a true Dark Lady of the Sith. Dark Jedi characters would be more appropriate.

 

So, the Wookieepedia reference pulls from the WoTC, which as or right now pulls from ... nothing.

 

If anyone knows the source that WotC (at one time) was referring to, that which explains Vergere made Lumiya a Sith Lord, I would absolutely love to see it. Knowing where and what that is, I believe, would in fact establish the character as a "Lord".

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

That is one of the few that I am intently re-studying.

She was added under the realization that although she was given the name

"Dark Lady of the Sith" by Vader, she had never actually completed her training to become a Sith Lord.

 

There is a a blub on Wookieepedia that mentions that at one time (although it no longer exists), there was a

small, "online only" supplement to the SW Miniatures game, posted on the WotC site, which suggested that she completed the training at a later date.

 

As mentioned, it no longer exists on the site, so I am trying to track down a copy.

The statement mentioned that it was there in 2008.

If anyone has this in their reference files please let me know.

 

I would also need to establish if a no longer in existence, web only game supplement, falls within the canon storyline.

[DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion]

Hey everybody,

 

Please let me first clear up one issue.

This is/ was not the decision of "One person".

Not one decision over the past year, no matter where it originates or what the circumstance, has been carried out without the support of many. That should be (and hopefully is) understood from the start.

 

Another important aspect to realize, and it has been stated even here in the thread, is that

many, many times, over several years, there has been a call to re-evaluate and better organize

how characters are designated. This call has only grown stronger with the perception that the new films will once again bring and explosion of new characters (I believe nearly 150 individual characters were added due to the last series of movies and its surrounding storyline)... and that we should do what we can, right now, to prepare for this.

 

The trouble seems to have been that the safest and "least frighting" course of action has been to

ignore these valid requests and do nothing. (likely to avoid any negative feedback due to change)

When our team accepted these positions, we made it a top priority to remove the words inaction and non-effort from our dictionaries.

 

Because I am the one who stepped forward to volunteer to take on this issue, by researching every single character listed within the entire 501st Legion, I was also by default the person to bring it directly to the DL's, which I / we absolutely felt was the proper course... and did just that.

 

After a several month long discussion, within he DL forum, and another within the LMO forum... combined with the many years of requests to take these actions, a large majority of the ideas expressed were to move forward with a re-evaluation and a better designation system that more accurately represents the classification of characters. And, that this should include not only additions but several subtractions.

 

The letters "DS" came from within the Detachment Leader Forum, and was not derived or decided upon by any one individual. The designation, as well as the move itself, was again enacted after many months of discussion. It was also not determined on a detachment by detachment basis, but rather character by character.

 

This designation is the first to be altered due in part to the long standing observation that Asajj is not a Sith Lord and should not have been placed in that category.

* Other examples of this type of situation revolves around the Mandalorians / Bounty Hunters/ Death Watch, and is currently the next up for review.

** An even more recent example for possible change is the call for a Concept/ McQuarrie designation and to move the concept Stormtrooper from its current spot as TK.

 

While research was to be conducted in regard to Asajj, it only made sense that the other characters which conflicted with the idea of "SL - Sith Lord" also be included and acted upon accordingly.

 

That is the abbreviated and simplified basis and idea for the change, and like I mentioned, has been found to be supported by the majority.

If the long standing support for changes had not been there, it simply would not have happened.

( I see there is some support even right here in this thread)

Even more so, nearly everyone has supported the overall idea of re-evaluation and re-organization.

Even those who are not happy with this particular circumstance.

 

It is hard to find, on the main message board, the phrase "New Movies" without it being attached to the request to prepare for an influx of new characters.

We have members in position, right now, who are more than willing to put forth the days, weeks and months of effort to accomplish these long overdue tasks, and feel that it is improper to continue passing the growing burden onto those in the future.

 

With that, we are absolutely interested in hearing the thoughts of each and every legion member.

As with any decision, no matter how big or small, there will be some who disagree.

Unfortunately, those of us on the LMO team have found that in nearly every instance, either by taking action, or not taking action on any given issue, there will be negative feedback.

Of course this has has been true since the very beginning and something that we fully expected when entering.

 

Let me once again list the characters that are currently categorized within this new designation, and please

share your thoughts on which should, or should not, be listed as Non- Sith Lords.

(Hopefully with a bit of supporting documentation)

 

And, as always if there are any questions, please shout out.

I will be right here.

 

The characters :

(with some small notes as to what appears to establish them as non-sith Lords)

 

Asajj Ventress (Dark Jedi / Dark Acolyte)

Brakiss (Dark Jedi)

Lumiya (Dark Lady of the Sith)

Mara Jade (Emperor's Hand/ Force User)

Maris Brood (Dark Force user)

Starkiller (Sith apprentice)

Visas Marr (Dark Force user)

Savage Opress (Night Brother / Sith apprentice)

 

- Night Sisters -

Asajj Ventress

Dark Force Witch

Karis

Mother Talzin

Sith Witch

[Baby Rancor Costume]

Other than the many talented members of this forum, you might also check the Gamorrean Guard section of the Krayt Clan forum. They would be very familiar with bulky foam costumes.