Imperial Knights and the 501st

[Guest Anonymous]

Association does not require affiliation. Yes the 501st serves Fel in the comics, as do the Imperial Knights... but the Imperial Knights do not serve the 501st.

 

If in the next issue Fel randomly decided to order the IK's to attack the 501st... they would do so. They are not affiliated with them in the least bit, they simply have a common leader.

 

I am still undecided myself as to whether or not (once they have enough references) the IK's should be 501st accepted. I plan on continuing to discuss the issue in this thread with everyone else until my mind is made up. However I do not think the fact that the 501st also serves Fel is reason to say the Imperial Knights are allied with them.

[Guest Anonymous]

I dont think anyone has said that the IK serve the 501st or vice versa either.

 

Both groups serve the emperor. The point I was pondering was that in the real world at the moment that the 501st has the bad guys costumes as its basis. While in the starwars universe the 501st isnt neccessarily 'bad'.

 

Its like alot of the potential costumes are neither good or bad, they fall in between. Take the clone troopers as an example, by themselves they are neither, its all dependent on whos giving them orders. Which is why we have the peculiar situation with the costumes being allowed in both 501st and RL. There are already 501st costumes that arent strictly bad guys too besides clones. Boba Fett, not really bad, just works for whoever pays him the most. Tuskens, also not bad, just trying to protect their territory from these alien settlers (humans etc).

 

The IK at the moment are alot like them, they will obey the emperor regardless of the orders. The fact that they are Imperial forces tips it for me though.

 

Personally Im for them to be part of the 501st. They certainly dont fit into the RL. Also its such a cool costume, is it really one that you wouldnt be proud to be standing next to ? So many elements of their costumes are based on exisiting bad guy costumes too.

 

I agree that as the story progresses it might make things easier to decide though

I'll do the costume regardless, simply beacuse I like it.

[Guest Cleverlilminx]

However I do not think the fact that the 501st also serves Fel is reason to say the Imperial Knights are allied with them.

 

 

But to say that both the Imperial Knights and the 501st both take command under the same Emperor has to say something for the IK cause.

[Guest Anonymous]

not necessarily.....

 

The thing thats being drug out here is the term "501st"... This group was founded around the Original Trilogy movies... through time it has incorporated the prequels and even some eu bounty hunters, sith lords and denzien.... However... the 501st in Legacy is not the 501st that we belong to. Keep that in mind. It got its name from us yes.... but simply because a comic series portrays the 501st as not really evil doesn't mean the costuming group we belond to should now begin opening its doors to all forms of neutral/good characters just because they share a common leader with the 501st as portrayed in one comic book line.

 

Like I said, I myself am undecided... and don't let my statements that seem as if I don't want the Imperial knights accepted confuse you... I am infact undecided... I just don't see the connection between them and the 501st as good proof that they should be accepted.

 

Will the costumes look awesome? yes. Would I be honored to stand by one? yes. But just because it would be cool does not mean we should let it in the 501st... I'd be honored to stand next to any really awesome costume, republic, rebel, imperial alike....

 

I'm not convinced

[Guest Cleverlilminx]

I think the best train of action at this time is to simply wait...

 

 

Legacy is a very young but popular series. I just got the latest copy sitting next to me and I'm going to read it and eventually I hope we find a way to get this most wonderful costume into the legion.

[Guest Anonymous]

That I have no grievances with... I'd love to see this costume in the legion... I just don't think theres any real evidence as of yet that supports that direction

[Guest Sakara]

im seeing the similarity with the Imp knights now and the royal guard of old.

In the films you never see the RG fight., yet we know from EU comics/books that they are aggresive and totoally loyal to the Emperor. They defend to the death the Emperor and what the empire stood for.

The Imp Knights are the same now, but the emperor has realised having force sensitive bodyguards is even better.

if Emp Fel told his knights to kill jedi, they would, if he told them to have a tea party with them, they would!

 

The 501st as a club has changed since it first started. Its grown, developed..accepting new characters as the stories grow. It wasnt long ago that EU sith lords were frowned upon...

I say for now we keep working on these amazing costumes, keep eyes out for more references and look forward to seeing these amazing characters come to life!

[Guest Anonymous]

I figure we have all read the latest comic, and I would like to submit my opinion of the IK as valid for the 501st.

The IK's are the next evolution of Royal Guard from Senate Guard and a combination of Jedi.

An improved ultimate guardian, Loyalty and obediance to the Empire and the reigining legal chancellor.

 

Service to the "Empire", not a quasy religious psycobable force weilding cult, or a centralized tyranical dictatorial power monger, worse they serve the people and the government .

 

I think we are a club not necessarily for the badguy, but for the Empire and the legal political entity after the change from Republic with a smattering of scum of the universe that you will find in any universe. Again the Republic has fallen, and again the Empire has risen and a new knight has emerged, the Imperial Knight.

 

While presently the Sith have now taken over the Empire, the IK will play a pivotal part in fighting the new diluted Sith order, and once defeated, they will continue in their service by keeping the remnants of the last fallen Republic and Skywalker's new cheesy Jedi in their place! Again all in protection of the Empire!

 

I look forward to starting my suit, and trooping as an IK!

[Guest Cleverlilminx]

Skywalker's new cheesy Jedi

 

 

Hey now... Skywalker hasn't gone jedi yet. I'm still hoping he stays a drugged out bounty hunter for a little while longer.

 

 

So nice to see a Skywalker not whine for a change.

 

 

Now back to topic:

 

We can debate about why the IK should be in the legion but what would be more practical IMO would be to keep each other updated if/when new references for the IK pop up.

 

[Guest Anonymous]

I haven't been able to find the actual source, and am still looking, but has anyone else heard about the possible production of a Legacy comic 2-pack in '08 that includes an Imperial Knight and another Legacy character?

 

 

 

Jason

[Guest Sakara]

i read somewhere regarding info from C4 that Hasbro were going to be working on a legacy lines of figures...

ive also heard the rumour about the comic figure pack aswell

 

will be keeping an eye out for both!

[Guest Anonymous]

So, if i understand correctly, there are three references required for a character/costume to be eligible, and the addition of an action figure would count as 2/3 needed?

 

 

Jason

[Guest Sakara]

from my understanding, yes an action figure..would count as a visual reference.

 

Not sure if two different figures from two different sources ( ie companies) would count as two seperate sources, but i think the two i mentioned will be both by Hasbro.

[The Clone Emperor]

Good afternoon,

 

I think this discussion has become mired in the three reference rule technicality.

 

With discussion in the Legion Council, the three reference requirement has been waived for certain exceptions. But a few other things must happen;

 

1. There must be an accurate and complete costume for consideration first.

 

In the case of the Imperial Knight, I have not seen a costume that accurately reflects the armour, dress and appearence of the Imperial Knight to a level consistant with the growing resources for the character to be considered for the 501st. Understand that I visit this board, the RPF, and the TDH, etc. several tymes a day. And I don't make this call alone. That is all I can say on the topic.

 

One of the reasons we are hesistant to accept comic characters into the Legion, is differing representations a character may be represented with, especially new characters. Some leeway is granted for soft items like clothing and glove colour. However, characters with hard armour whose appearence should not change may need tyme for their appearence to be fully established. Imperial Knights are only now reaching the point. where their armour can be codified.

 

2. A way to shoehorn an obviously non-villain character into the 501st's historically bad guy only character will need to be considered. I won't support an exception that will undo previous policy rulings or require the entire Legion to be reformatted. This one decision could potentially effect hundreds. It would need to be regarded as such and approached from many angles.

 

If this post concerns you, I ask to please consider making a reply as a PM first.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[Guest bassclarinets]

Thomas - thank you for your clarification...

 

Jen

[Guest Anonymous]

I stand undecided.

 

They are Imperials. Loyal unto Death to the Emperor. My IK is going to be descended character wise from my RG. I plan to do a Crimson Empire character as the in between.

 

But as others have said their actions have been more in line with the "good guys" which may be primarily due to the Usurping of the Imperial Throne. Make no mistake if the Republic had attacked Fel's Empire the Imperial Knights would have waged war on the Republic/Jedi without hesitation. But still we have yet to see Fel and his Knights act traitorous or villainous. Also note that everything out there suggests that Imperial Knights are considered misguided but not evil by the Jedi of the Era, placing them somewhat in the category of Jensarrai or another major Force tradition allied or "okay" with the Jedi.

 

 

All things considered I lean towards them being perfect 501st characters because the RL won't ever accept them, and if Fel ordered it they would whomp Jedi arse no qualms, no questions. Once we have enough ratifiable references to go by, that is. Like some EU characters such as Rohlan Dyre, their image changes quite drastically from one image to the next, often on the same character. So how do you codify something so non standard? You wait til a figure comes out, or at least some other hard set reference.

 

Ideally I would like to see a two pack, male and female Imp Knights in one of the Legacy Comic packs, sort of like how they did the two Crimson Empire Royal Guards.

 

Also as I understand it the Legion does sometimes waive the 3 references but. You need a definitive full body reference. This is one reason Kal Skirata is still not an approved character and may never be. His issue is his softs below the flak vest, Karen Traviss has not once described what Kal's softs look like in detail for the Novelizations to even be acceptable as his main reference..

 

Second, for the 3 rule to be waived there needs to be a sense of permanence. IT needs to feel like something that is going to be around, if it is a named character they need some level of "permanence" in the EU. Kal met this requirement but fell short on softs and the Legion thumbed him down. I do not yet see the IKs as permanent. No figures, no comic packs, no minis, they do not seem to yet have the "permanence" of character yet to be worthy of the Legion waiving the rule of three.

 

So that in my mind puts us at either waiting patiently for 2 more references, or, alternately, someone sculpts and makes armor available at a reasonable rate and we start with the real, "now should we accept this?" questions from the Legion when we actually have costumes "needing" their approval. Honestly not enough people have a vested interest in the costume to make a stand and ask for the Legions approval, Matte Black RepComs went through this, until there were enough people clamoring about it, it wasn't accepted. But once there were 50+ people with TKIDs already asking about their RC color choice, the Legion had to take a moment and honestly ask itself in its leadership, are we ready to accept this?

 

 

Patience is a virtue in costuming. Me? My sculpt begins tomorrow. I have made a body double in my size and I lay clay on it tomorrow.

 

 

Alexis Diana Dority

TR2813

*smiles*

[Guest Anonymous]

This is kinda of how I see it. Not everyone in the Empire is Evil, not every soilder or officer is Evil, they simply choose a side, to them it was the established Government. So to them the Rebels are the the bad guys. They are/were terrorists trying to overthrow the Government.

 

At some point Stormtroopers stopped becomming clones and were enlisted from regular people, I would imagine recruitment went up after the First Death Star was destroyed. Given Imperial propaganda, I could almost imagine the destruction of the Death Star was sort of their version of 9/11.

 

So to the point os the IK's, they server the Empire, like millions of other people who server the Empire and are not evil. They fall into a 'Grey Knight' Catagory. The biggest problem is the 501st is full of not just Villans, but Imperial servants. Since the IK's serve the Empire, they would be classified as Servernts of the Empire. Just becuase the Empire has become the good guy, does not change the fact that they are still serving the Empire and that's what the 501st is.

 

I've had simular arguments over the years of playing Star Wars Galaxies as an Imperial player. Look at Pellaeon, he was in command of the Empire for a time (at least in some sence) but he was not 'Evil' in fact he tried as best he could, not to engage the forces of the Republic, in fact he later joined forces with the Republic. One last thought.

[Guest Anonymous]

I hate to say it but the following quote from the comic book (#29. Vector pt 10, pg 12) could be a problem. (or it could cause both the 501st and the Rebel Legion to allow this build.)

 

As Imperial Knights, we obey the Emperor but only as long as the Emperor serves the light side of The Force.

 

The quoted character, one Master Kreig, goes on to say that if the Emperor falls to the dark side, they are to either redeem or remove him.

 

In effect they treat the Emperor as the 'prophet of the light side' (which could peclude their eligibity in the 501st), yet none the less they are Imperial Knights, which does preclude their use in RL events. much

 

@ TR-0773: This quote both confirms and denies you statement as re-printed here (but only in regards to being a quasi-religous Force wielding cult):

Service to the "Empire", not a quasy religious psycobable force weilding cult, or a centralized tyranical dictatorial power monger, worse they serve the people and the government .

 

And this just in: Wizards of the Coast, publisher of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game are releasing the Legacy Era Campaign Guide. I can just imagine rocking up to play (or GM) a Imperial Knight character as an Imperial Knight!

[Guest Daritha]

[...]

I do not yet see the IKs as permanent. No figures, no comic packs, no minis, they do not seem to yet have the "permanence" of character yet to be worthy of the Legion waiving the rule of three.

The permanance fact is now given. As Thomas mentioned he got his own action figure (cool thing!), there are WotC Miniatures with the Legacy characters, the Legacy Era Campaign Guide features the Knights and with the quote from High Moff Jagged Fel (in the "Outcast" novel) that Jaina Solo should found her own Jedi order within the Empire we could see the beginning of the Knights in the "Fate of the Jedi" novels or an ongoing series.

 

To the Light-Dark-Side debate: Sure, the Knights serve the light side of the Force referring to the comics. But the Campaign Guide mentioned the facts in a slightly other way. So we got conflicting sources. And still: They're IMPERIAL Knights. They serve the Empire and the Emperor - like the 501st Legion do as a kind of praetorian guard (In-Universe).

 

By the way: What's the present stage of the discussion in whole? This thread was long time inactive. So the discussion is over, freezed, or simply sleeping? Enlight me or insult me please (preffering the first).

[The Clone Emperor]

No one has yet completed a Basic Legion Level Imperial Knight;

 

1. Full body suit

A. Black Quilted leather/leather-like top with eight panel torso and high neck

B. Black Quilted or Plain leather/leather-like trousers

2. Black eight panel leather/leather-like skirt

3 . Gloves

4. Three layer leather/leather-like brown belt and Imperial issue buckle,

5. Proper boots--A chocolate brown version of Obi Wan's Episode II boots

6. Rich Brown cape

Armour;

7. Unique L/R Red hand plates

8. Unique L/R Red Bracers and molded red straps

9. Unique Red Loin plate

10. Unique Red Abdomen plate

11. Unique Red Chest plate

12. Unique Red Back plate

13. Unique Red cape cap plate

14. Unique Red L/R under bells

15. Unique Red L/R over bells

Accessories

16. Unique hilt lightsabre and white blade

17. Brown leather/leather-like belt pouches

 

Besides matching the references created by Jan Duurseama, I'd also look for the armour to fit the wearer. The abdomen plate should cover the abodomen, not sit on top of the belly button. The breast plate should not rest above the wearer's chest, but rather be aligned with it.

 

I have a file of all the Imperial Knight costumers that I have found in the past 2 years. Some are close, but most try to hide missing parts with a cape or hood. Or they are flat and do not follow the sculpted form of the armour referenced. Or the fit is fairly off. I am for requiring a completed, accurate suit for membership.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[Guest Daritha]

Thanks for posting this up.

 

... Hmmmmmm chocolate. *homer-simpson like*

[Guest Sakara]

indeed, many of the prebought armour is made for one bodytype only, that of a large man and doesnt suit any other body type.

[Guest A'Sharad Hett]

[...]

 

I would love to justify Imperial Knights in the Legion. However the definition of qualifying characters seems to challenge their inclusion; The working definition to qualify characters for the 501st has been LFL referencible Villains--characters that would mean harm onto heros--from the SW Universe.

 

[...]

 

This definition depends on the definition of "hero". So we have to define who the hero is to define if Imperial Remnant is on the Villains' side.

 

We are sure Krayt is on the Villains' side for sure, as he's against everyone else in the galaxy (any chance to enter the legion with my Krayt, Thomas?), but there are multiple factions in legacy, much more than ever, in SW.

 

The first Trilogy was a story of black and white, Legacy has a full range of shades of grey, and this makes the distinction very hard to make.

 

We have three candidates for the role of heroes:

 

- Cade and his gang (for baing protagonist of the series)

- Galactic Alliance (as it is the republic remnant)

- Jedi

 

Cade is against everything else in the galaxy as Krayt is. He works with everyone as needed (even for the Sith), so he's hardly definable as a good guy.

 

The Galactic Alliance is against teh Jedi Order and hardly "heroic". The only heroic activity is the theft of Krayt's new flagship that became a death sentence to many calamari.

 

The Jedi, much like the Galactic Alliance, are just trying to survive extinction, but they are with IKs and Cade when it was time to strike against Krayt.

 

I think that the best candidate is the Jedi, then.

 

Their objectives are peace and a new republic (again), so IK are against them and then Villains.

 

One must question Jedi work with GA and Cade and even with IK, if needed, and being allied (not formally), they cannot be labeled villains.

 

But I think of Vong War, where New Republic and Imperial Remnant joined forces to face the new menace: is a stormtrooper suitable for Rebel Legion if said to be from that point in the timeline? I think not.

 

My 2 cents, sorry for this wall of text :>

[Guest Daritha]

You've made up some good point A'Sharad. Legacy isn't (and was never) about good guys and doing the right thing but more of ordinary people who want to find a way in this galaxy. Who want to live. Who want their beloved back. Who want back their way of life. Or who want simply to survive. There are no essentially good guys in Legacy but a whole bunch of real people with love, hate, jealousy and, of course, fear depp within.

 

[...]

The first Trilogy was a story of black and white, Legacy has a full range of shades of grey, and this makes the distinction very hard to make.

Finally the vision of the Potentium heretics come true! ^.^

 

The Galactic Alliance is against teh Jedi Order and hardly "heroic". The only heroic activity is the theft of Krayt's new flagship that became a death sentence to many calamari.

Yup, many sushi.

 

I don't really think that theft is technically a heroic act but the Galactic Alliance Remnant is from my POV the only faction in Legacy who are close enough to be one the "hero side". The Jedi hide themselves as Roan Fel's Empire-in-exile and his Imperial Knights do. Darth Krayt's Sith Empire rules through fear and blind obedience. The new Black Sun and the new Bouny Hunters Guild picking up the pieces that are left behind. So, we have "cowards" (Jedi, IK, Empire-in-exile), posers (Krayt's Empire), and scavengers (BS, BHG). None of them is really heroic in his acts.

I don't want to glorify the GA. They're not even far better. True, they fight for the freedom of the galaxy (their birthright, as good ol' Captain Yorub said shortly before his end) but do they really want the galaxy's freedom or just want their old way of life? They are all soldiers and Stazi's one of the "old guard". It's possible that he can't compensate the loss of the GA (a thing he do know his whole life) and simply want it back like a little child his favourite toy. But so far, the GA is the best candidate for the part of the good guys.

 

Back to the main topic since I drifted a little bit away: I think the Imperial Knights ARE 501st worthy due to the simple fact: They are Imperial Knights. Darth Revan is also an approved Sith Lord but Revan was not initially bad and was later redeemed. Revan took the mantle of the Sith Lord to unify the galaxy against the True Sith who showed up 300 years later (see The Old Republic MMO). So Revan wasn't really a bad guy but he was a Sith Lord and so, technically, as bad as the Imperial Knights who serves the Emperor of the Galactic Empire (or the chief of the bad guys in this manner).

Not to mention the "evil" Mara Jade and her development throughout the years.

[Scottrooper]

Back to the main topic since I drifted a little bit away: I think the Imperial Knights ARE 501st worthy due to the simple fact: They are Imperial Knights. Darth Revan is also an approved Sith Lord but Revan was not initially bad and was later redeemed. Revan took the mantle of the Sith Lord to unify the galaxy against the True Sith who showed up 300 years later (see The Old Republic MMO). So Revan wasn't really a bad guy but he was a Sith Lord and so, technically, as bad as the Imperial Knights who serves the Emperor of the Galactic Empire (or the chief of the bad guys in this manner).

Not to mention the "evil" Mara Jade and her development throughout the years.

 

Whatever his reasoning though, Revan did choose to go over to the dark side and become a Sith, pitting himself against the collective galactic will.

 

Mara acted under the command and control of Palpatine, in the same way that Stormtroopers did, or the Moffs, etc... leaving her clearly acting for evil.

 

The Imperial Knights however, we've seen only fighting against the Sith, and have actively stated (I believe it was Ganner Krieg who said it) that their duty is to take down the Emperor if he were to ever go to the Dark Side. So even though they've got the Imperial name, they aren't villains. So far they've been portrayed as heroes more than villains. (Except Draco Antares....he's just portrayed as a putz.)