Imperial Knights and the 501st

[The Clone Emperor]

Unfortunately the eligiblity notice thread has been locked.

 

I would love to justify Imperial Knights in the Legion. However the definition of qualifying characters seems to challenge their inclusion; The working definition to qualify characters for the 501st has been LFL referencible Villains--characters that would mean harm onto heros--from the SW Universe.

 

It is important to note that Imperial Knights have never been shown to raise arms against the heros of the Star Wars Universe. In Legacy Issue 8, Lady Maladi reveals that Emperor Fel kept the Imperial Knights out the war between the Empire and the Alliance, a war that he was never trully in support of.

 

Imperial Knights are neutral down to their lightsabre blade colour. If they had to choose an allegiance, their actions demonstrated to date demostrate those of heros.

 

Legacy Sith are still bad guys. ?Is there a way to logically extend the umbrella of the 501st to allow for neutral-leaning towards-good guys?

 

I'd love to hear some good arguments.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[Guest Cleverlilminx]

In issue --7, they show that they have no love for Jedi or Sith. In the battle in question, yes they took arms with the Jedi against the Sith but again, the Sith were trying to attack Fel's daughter.

 

I think the role of the Imperial Knight's is to honor and serve Emperor Fel and his daughter period. Everyone else is on their own.

 

So is this a case were the Emperor = Good!?! I'm not 100% convinced, I still think it's too soon to tell to be honest.

 

I do however see the Imperial Knights do follow their own code of honor.

 

I'm not saying they are 501st material, but I'm not convinced they are Rebel Legion material either.

 

This one, only after eight comics, is simply too hard to tell and frankly too soon to tell.

[Guest Darth Revan]

I always thought the 501st was Imperial and "bad guys". If they can not be included due to the lack of fights with "heros" then why are EPII clones allowed?

[The Clone Emperor]

The argument for Episode II, Republic Clonetroopers in the 501st goes like this;

 

Episode II CLones are the same Clones as Episode III Clones. Had they been directed to kill the Jedi on the day of their discovery, they would have. (Or at least they would have died trying to.) The fact that they were ordered to delay their fight with the Jedi until the Jedi were sufficiently weakened is strategy and deceit--not evidence of changing from Heros to Villains.

 

Clonetroopers were bred without conscious. They are little more than highly effective organic robots in service of Darth Sidious.

[Guest Darth Revan]

I will update the top thread as needed Thomas.

[The Clone Emperor]

No update needed yet. My comment stemmed from the idea that this discussion appears to be related. As I understand fourm etiquette frowns starting new threads for previously created ones. No harm.

 

I'd like to shoehorn Imperial Knights into the Legion, but in a tymeline where the Empire is more or less aligned with the Good guys, it is hard to make the fit. I am very interested in ways to make this work.

 

I spoke to Jan Duursema about this months ago. Her response was "They are Imperials." Maybe that is enough, but I'd like a more defensible platform--if possible.

[Guest Cleverlilminx]

I understand what your saying Thomas, some folks in the legion seem to need enough proof on EU characters to go beyond a "reasonable doubt" as it were...

 

Ok in the DL roundtable, the subject of Jawas and their part in the universe as "bad guys"was brought up. Sure they are not rebels or imperials... but if you ask R2 & 3PO, I'm willing to bet they would think Jawas are bad guys.

 

Maybe taking on a different prospective is what is needed to justify when some characters can join the 501st ranks and others can't.

 

 

I'm still trying to figure out why both Jawas and Tuskens are in the Rebel Legion...

[Guest Anonymous]

The argument for Episode II, Republic Clonetroopers in the 501st goes like this;

 

Episode II CLones are the same Clones as Episode III Clones. Had they been directed to kill the Jedi on the day of their discovery, they would have. (Or at least they would have died trying to.) The fact that they were ordered to delay their fight with the Jedi until the Jedi were sufficiently weakened is strategy and deceit--not evidence of changing from Heros to Villains.

 

Clonetroopers were bred without conscious. They are little more than highly effective organic robots in service of Darth Sidious.

 

 

Well could'nt the same argument be used for the Knight's, I'm sure if they were ordered to kill the Jedi by the Emperor Fell, given there loyalty to him and the Empire they would.

 

The Knight's are loyal to the Emperor and the Empire, they just happen to be in a time of relative peace between the Alliance and Empire.

 

In issue 7 they did'nt side with the Jedi, or skywalker, they just worked with them to protect the princess, performing there duty, you can tell from reading the comic, the Knight's have no love for the Jedi.

 

My View is quite simple on this:

 

They are called Imperial Knight's, they are Loyal to the Emperor and to the Empire, it may not be Palpatine, but he is an Emperor and if he ordered the knights to war with the Alliance, they would go.

 

This is kind of similar to the argument, where people did'nt think Darth Revan should be allowed in to the 501st as the offical story is he turns to the Light ......but is'nt the same of Darth Vader?

[Guest Darth Revan]

I guess we will have to wait until They kill off some Jedi!

 

I am with you on this Thomas. I would like to see them included in the 501st. They are Imperial and we are Imperial. I would say that we need to wait and see what the next few issues show us about the Imperial Knights.

[Guest Anonymous]

I deffinately can't see them being included in to the Rebel Legion, purely because they have Imperial in the name, then again I said the same about Visas Marr, and was proved wrong they do have one in RL !

[Guest Darth Revan]

I deffinately can't see them being included in to the Rebel Legion, purely because they have Imperial in the name, then again I said the same about Visas Marr, and was proved wrong they do have one in RL !

 

The LCO of the RL said that the Imperial Knights would not be included becuase they are Imperial!

[Guest Cleverlilminx]

I think the Imperial Knights are not loyal to the Empire or to the seat of any Emperor but only to Emperor Fel and his daughter.

 

If the Knights were loyal to the Empire and the seat of the Emperor, they would be seving Emperor Darth Krayt instead.

 

 

Here's a thought... the 501st is acting in the same way as the Imperial Knights are, they are devoted to Emperor Fel and not the Empire at this time.

[Guest Anonymous]

one word really sums it up for me. IMPERIAL knights.

 

They are loyal to Fel, who is the Emperor of the Empire.

 

 

501st is an Imperial costuming group...hence Imp Knights allowed into 501st.

the argument that theyre not evil enough..well thats a point of view isnt it. im sure more of the Imperial officers under Vader thought they were doing good and wernt evil....

At the moment theyre not done anything 'evil' but whose to say they wont if Fel orders it?

[Guest Darth Revan]

I was poking around looking for the costume designation for officer and saw something interesting "CT: Clone Trooper (ROTS)".

 

Does that mean that there is a special designation for AOTC Clones?

 

EDIT: There is: TC is for the AOTC

 

Another hopeful lead in getting the IK in the Legion shot down.

[Guest Anonymous]

If I can venture my two cents on the IK.

 

As I mentioned to Thomas--the Knights are Imperials. Their first loyalty is to the Emperor Fel and his heirs because they consider him to be the true Emperor. Likewise, their allegiance is always with the true Empire. In their eyes, Darth Krayt is a usurper of the true Emperor--therefore Krayt's Empire is false.

 

The IK will defend their Emperor to the death. While they do not go seeking fights with the Jedi--as someone noted, Fel kept the IK out of the Battle of Ossus--if a Jedi attacked their Emperor, they would have no qualms whatsoever about killing that Jedi.

 

In Legacy, instead of an Empire united by the Sith, we have an Empire divided by the Sith. Yet it is no less of an Empire than Sidious' Empire in that they want to conquer the Galaxy and make it all Imperial. The difference is that Roan Fel had the brilliant plan to make a peaceful conquest of the Galaxy through his Imperial Mission.

 

Does that make him a good guy? He still wants to subjugate others to his will and to the laws he institutes. Are these laws in the best interest of his conquests? That still remains to be seen in Legacy. Certainly, at this point in time, Krayt is the baddest bad guy on stage, but I would never paint Fel as the 'good guy'. He is an Imperial and stands for all the Empire ever stood for.

 

Hope that helps the discussion.

 

Best--

 

Jan

[Sidewalker]

I think part of the issue is the idea of an Imperial Mission as a good thing. Given that a large portion of North America is Christian, and the idea of a mission has Christian connotations, the majority would see that as a good thing. However, take for example the scenarios where missionaries forced people of other cultures to convert to Christianity. I'm not intending to incite a religious flame war here, I'm just trying to convey the message that actions done with the best intentions from one point of view can be construed as evil and subjugating from another. The Imperial Mission may have thought they were doing a service, but the cultures they tried to convert may not have felt that way. The Imperial Knights would be like Christian Knights during the crusades. From one point of view, they were rescuing or defending the holy land from Muslims. From the Muslim point of view at that time, they were heathens and infidels who were pillaging and murdering the innocent and the righteous. Again, not trying to stir the pot, just trying to relate Legacy to real world examples.

[Guest Anonymous]

I joined this forum specifically because looking through the 501st Eligibility debate, I couldn't help but notice that somehow, everyone on this board - particularly, and most surprisingly, the representative from the 501st - have over looked the most compelling -and not to mention obvious - argument for the inclusion of the Imperial Knights into the legion.

 

In issue --3, Emperor Roan Fel arrives on Bastion accompanied by three Imperial Knights: Antares Draco, Sigel Dare, and Ganner Krieg. Upon disembarking from his shuttle the Emperor is greeted by an officer loyal to the Sith, Lt. Keiffer, who wishes to place the rightful Emperor under arrest. When the Keiffer raises his blaster, he is shot from behind. The man who gave the order to shoot then introduces himself to the Emperor:

 

"General Oron Jeager, 501st, Commander on Bastion. Welcome back, Sire. Welcome home."

 

See? As of 137 years after the Battle of Yavin, the 501st fights for Roan Fel alongside his Imperial Knights.

 

Now if the clonetroopers can be let in, surely the IKs can.

[The Clone Emperor]

As defined by their actions the Imperial Knights of SW Legacy are more closely aligned with the Alliance than Sith. Infact, the IK's were kept from battle with Alliance forces by order of Emperor Fel.

 

The Free thinking Imperial Knights cannot not be compared to the Clonetroopers under the command of Darth Sidious. Those Clones were little more than organic battledroids, maneveured under the guise of being allies into position to shoot their Jedi targets in the back.

 

Infact the only actions we have visual reference for of Imperial Knights are those in which they are intentionally helping Alliance characters with no appearent hidden agenda. Perhaps in future stories these brave acts may be revealed to be an elaborate and diabolic ruse, but not yet.

 

This presents an issue with approving the Imperial Knights as SW Villains.

 

It could be argued that they are Imperial and aligned with the 501st, but I still need to fit their good guy roles together with the policies defining membership requirement in the 501st costuming organization. (SW Villains.)

 

In addition to this, there is talk of requiring 3 visual references from three separate sources to demostrate that a character has become "established" in the SW Universe. To date their is but one source for Legacy introduced characters, the Legacy comic series.

 

I personally have an interest in seeing the Imperial Knights approved for 501st membership, but I need to keep the approval fair and unbiased.

 

I know of at least one very official additional reference source to come in the future for these popular characters. Others are sure to follow.

 

In the meanwhile, I recommend to continue making wonderful costumes.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[Guest Anonymous]

Does anyone know if there are plans to make an IK miniature for the game? I understand there was much rejoicing among the TIE pilots when a Baron Soontir Fel mini was made, as it was accepted by the 501st Powers That Be as a "source."

 

BobaMatt has a good point:

 

1. Since the 501st is a "villainous" organization, and

2. the 501st is loyal to Emperor Fel, then

3. Any organization or individual loyal to Emperor Fel should be considered "villainous."

 

My two credits.

[Guest Darth Revan]

What we need to do is convince the writers to have the IK wack a few Jedi.

 

That would solve the whole good guys question right there.

[Guest Cleverlilminx]

As far as 501st approval goes, at this present time, it's not happening due to the fact that no one has completed an Imperial Knight costume yet...

 

I believe that a costume has to be completed before it can even be argued for approval by the legion, if I am wrong in that assumption, please say so Thomas.

 

The point of this section however is to get all folks interested in making this costume on the same page since it is obvious in the Legacy series that all Imperial Knights look alike, not sorta alike, but exactly alike. I would love to see more folks discussing and coming to an understanding over the various details of this costume instead of worrying about legion approval at this point in the game. Remember, the comic book series isn't even a year old yet...

 

As much as I support the movement for making Imperial Knights part of the legion, the best things to do right now would be for everyone to focus on making fantastic costumes and keep an eye out for more visual references. Let's build a case for this costume not a debate over it.

 

 

 

For non-501st members: when we talk about "three references" we are referring to three separate visual LFL approved references from separate sources, under that line of reasoning, the Legacy series is one reference.

[Guest Anonymous]

Does anyone know if there are plans to make an IK miniature for the game? I understand there was much rejoicing among the TIE pilots when a Baron Soontir Fel mini was made, as it was accepted by the 501st Powers That Be as a "source."

 

BobaMatt has a good point:

 

1. Since the 501st is a "villainous" organization, and

2. the 501st is loyal to Emperor Fel, then

3. Any organization or individual loyal to Emperor Fel should be considered "villainous."

 

My two credits.

Well, the 501st isn't bad in Legacy, and neither are the IKs or any of the Imperials loyal to Fel in Legacy. My thinking was more along the lines of, if you can include Episode II Clone Troopers because that's what the 501st was, then why can't you also represent what the 501st becomes? Should the 501st legion not first and foremost represent the 501st legion?

[Guest Anonymous]

That is a conundrum.

 

Imagine having to get a Legacy style 501st TK costume approved by the RL

[Guest Anonymous]

That would be funny. Of course, The RL allows AOTC clonetroopers and ARC troopers...

 

So some characters are accepted by both and some are rejected by both...

[Guest Anonymous]

Its an interesting twist isnt it.

 

The 501st as a costume club is defined by the simple precept of 'bad guys'. Now that its own success has seen it written into the starwars universe and other people like authors can use the identity they have changed the definition of the 501st to loyal servants of the empire and when the empire isnt bad the 501st arent either.

 

Will the two ever be reconcilled, who knows. Something for the top brass to think about as Im sure more and more of this type of situation will crop up.