Imperial Knights and the 501st

[Guest Daritha]

Good spoken, ... Scotty. *g*

 

But despite this the Imperial Knights are ... well, Imperial. (I don't want to make this into a debate about principes but some formal things are obvious.) Han Solo or Crix Madine where once Stormtroopers or Imperial officers but no one would think they're the bad guys. But technically they'd been part of the Empire and so they had been part of the bad guys; like Starkiller who start as a slave of his master Vader and turned to not only a rebel but the First Rebel.

Future novels will surely show how the Knights began - propably with Jaina Solo who's not schmoozing around her Jedi pals anymore and founding the Knights for some kick-ass action we all hatelove her for. The only sad part is that with Jaina marrying Jagged and giving birth to many little Fel-ings and being Master of her Order (or whatever) there wouldn't be technically a Solo family anymore.

[Guest Anonymous]

I dunno......I was up at 3am this morning when it occured to me....

 

Why to all #$@#$@#%@#$ is that slut Talon (sorry, she is!!) allowed in the 501st when - running almost parallel in existing art/origins/source material/etc - the Imperial Knights are denied their rightful place.

 

Unless someone can comfirm Talon slept her way to the top....it doesn't make any sense!

 

Just my opinion. Or the Jagermeister's. Take your pick.

[Guest A'Sharad Hett]

I must highlight something more.

 

In the Storms story arc we have the Sith hunting down the calamari and the Emperor asks his Imperial Knight there on the planet to come back, as there is no use in calamari, they won't join the empire ever, cause they are good.

 

Is this enough to put Galactic Empire into the evil guys group?

[Guest Anonymous]

I Is this enough to put Galactic Empire into the evil guys group?

 

With all due respect, my Lord Krayt, "good" and "evil" are rather.....arbitrary? That the leadership of the Empire at it's founding are considered....not very nice guys.....does that negate the sacrifices of countless millions of loyal, hardworking men, women, and aliens trying to bring law and order to a disorganized and rather darwinistic universe?

 

If anything, I would say the "Alliance to Restore the Republic" (how's that working out for you, ya rebel scum?) are little more than terrorists, cowards, and malcontents upset at the overthrow of the overextended royalist oligarchy that was the Republic. Using shameless rabble-rousing propaganda (like that shill movie some pedestrial human crudely made a while back casting these traitors and rebels as "freedom fighters of righteousness") they attempt to cast themselves as the "good guys", selling toys and games where the user recreates their terrorist tactics to destablize and discredit the galaxy's legitimate, elected government.

 

The nerve!

 

If anything, the Imperials are the "good" guys (hey, all our troopers wear white! That should tell you something!) and this truth must be spread to all corners of the galaxy!!!

 

(False) Emperor Fel is something of an abboration since he lost his throne fair and square yet clings to power by force of personality and unnervingly fanatical minions. But truth be told, is he really all that different from Lord Krayt, acting on whatever means are appropriate to secure, stabilize, and expand his holdings and thus expand the Empire? When the truth emerges, Fel and Krayt might not be as dissimiliar in outlook or method as they seem physically!

 

Hmm....just realized....does this mean Darth Vader is a civil servant and g-man....?

[Guest Daritha]

Why to all #$@#$@#%@#$ is that slut Talon (sorry, she is!!) allowed in the 501st when - running almost parallel in existing art/origins/source material/etc - the Imperial Knights are denied their rightful place.

 

Unless someone can comfirm Talon slept her way to the top....it doesn't make any sense!

It's quite possible that (In-Universe!) she did it. I remember some quotes from Darthipedia and images from Shabby Blue to that topic.

 

For real: The simple fact that Talon is an servant of the Dark Side (and that women willingly take her "dress" ... or whatever the spare pieces of cloth are called) makes her 501st worthy. And hey: In the Rebel Legion we have our Slave Leia so the 501st need someone wo can counter this grade of sexyness. It's only a guess but ... well, we men make up a great percentage of the 501st members.

 

[...] If anything, I would say the "Alliance to Restore the Republic" (how's that working out for you, ya rebel scum?) are little more than terrorists, cowards, and malcontents upset at the overthrow of the overextended royalist oligarchy that was the Republic.

You hurt me so much it take my breath a little.

 

If anything, the Imperials are the "good" guys (hey, all our troopers wear white! That should tell you something!) and this truth must be spread to all corners of the galaxy!!!

Yeah, but isn't white in Japan the color of sorrow and grief?

 

Hmm....just realized....does this mean Darth Vader is a civil servant and g-man....?

Good question ... really.

[Guest A'Sharad Hett]

Last Legacy issue I read:

 

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/15-976/ ... --Renegade

 

It seems to me Imps are evil/villain enough to be 501st

 

They push things to the point of a carnage, stopped by Stazi himself, allied to the imps, but heroic and good.

[Guest Daritha]

Read it also but this are "mediocre" Imps, not Imperial Knights. If we have Master Dare of Sinde on board of one of thos Imp ISDs then the Knights would be "evil", though. But there are only ordinary Imps and soldiers depicted. I think this fact isn't (poorly) much worth in a hard argument.

[The Clone Emperor]

Not all Imperials are evil. Not all Imperials of the Legacy Era are aligned against the Alliance and/or Jedi. In fact, Imperial Knights were specifically withheld from battle with Alliance and Jedi forces on orders of the Emperor they serve, the True Emperor Roan Fel. NO Imperial Knights serve Darth Krayt's Empire.

 

And above the their duty to the Empire, to the Emperor himself, comes their duty to the Light Side of the Force. (Legacy 29.)

 

Over the course of this discussion I have come back to support Imperial Knights in the Legion on virtue of the very first argument offered by creator Jan Duursema; "They are Imperial."

 

This will become an issue for consideration in the 501st when someone completes an Imperial Knight costume matching the designs and specifications as suggested by Jan Duursema's illustrations;

 

No one has yet completed a Basic Legion Level Imperial Knight;

 

1. Full body suit

A. Black Quilted leather/leather-like top with eight panel torso and high neck

B. Black Quilted or Plain leather/leather-like trousers

2. Black eight panel leather/leather-like skirt

3 . Gloves

4. Three layer leather/leather-like brown belt and Imperial issue buckle,

5. Proper boots--A chocolate brown version of Obi Wan's Episode II boots

6. Rich Brown cape

Armour;

7. Unique L/R Red hand plates

8. Unique L/R Red Bracers and molded red straps

9. Unique Red Loin plate

10. Unique Red Abdomen plate

11. Unique Red Chest plate

12. Unique Red Back plate

13. Unique Red cape cap plate

14. Unique Red L/R under bells

15. Unique Red L/R over bells

Accessories

16. Unique hilt lightsabre and white blade

17. Brown leather/leather-like belt pouches

 

Besides matching the references created by Jan Duurseama, I'd also look for the armour to fit the wearer. The abdomen plate should cover the abodomen, not sit on top of the belly button. The breast plate should not rest above the wearer's chest, but rather be aligned with it.

 

I have a file of all the Imperial Knight costumers that I have found in the past 2 years. Some are close, but most try to hide missing parts with a cape or hood. Or they are flat and do not follow the sculpted form of the armour referenced. Or the fit is fairly off. I am for requiring a completed, accurate suit for membership.

 

I personally hope to add my own suit to my Legion roster one day. But I will have to complete it first.

 

 

Be well,

Thomas

[Guest Daritha]

Don't forget Treis Sinde in Legacy 33: "I'm not a Jedi. Imperial Knights believe we serve the Force by serving an empire that brings order. For three generations our duty has been to the Emperor, going back to Jagged Fel."

 

I think that's a hard fact for the discussion. A Knight clearly states that he is not a Jedi; according to Sigel Dare in Legacy 22 when she claims: "Better. We are Imperial Knights." to the question "Jedi!?".

[Guest A'Sharad Hett]

Don't forget Treis Sinde in Legacy 33: "I'm not a Jedi. Imperial Knights believe we serve the Force by serving an empire that brings order. For three generations our duty has been to the Emperor, going back to Jagged Fel."

 

I think that's a hard fact for the discussion. A Knight clearly states that he is not a Jedi; according to Sigel Dare in Legacy 22 when she claims: "Better. We are Imperial Knights." to the question "Jedi!?".

 

More on this matter. IKs serve Roan Fel. And he's a villain, maybe not evil, but surely a villain, as he threatens GA even when aliied with them (and GA surely is the only heroic faction in Legacy)

[Guest Daritha]

Fact. The Emperor should always be considered a bad guy since he's the political heir of Palpatine. But are the denizens of the Emperor, or in case of the Knights his bodyguards, are evil too?

 

I come, for me, more and more to the conclusion that the Knights are same kind as Clone Troopers. They are accepted in the 501st because they're the core of the Imperial Army and ... yeah, there's Order 66. But they also accepted into the Rebel Legion since they are good guys and the foot soldiers of the Jedi Generals throughout the Clone Wars. Its vice versa with the Knights, I think.

[Tags]

Ok, the wife has expressed some serious interest in an Imperial Knight, and In fact I must admit to my interest as well. So question is, is there any update yet?

 

I'm not so sure they leave towards good, following the light or dark side of the force would necessarily make you good or evil. The Imperial Knights strike me as being more in line with bounty hunters, in that sort of grey area. Of course if you like we could a can of ethical philosophy and discuss the nature of good and evil and maybe just baffle em with BS.

[Guest Daritha]

The Knight is still not an official costume since there's no one who got accepted yet - and Thomas patiently wait for the time he feel the disturbance in the Force that whispers "finished". (We all know no costume is ever finished, therefore the quotation marks. ^^)

 

As for now, however, the Imperial Knights are considerable for the 501st due to the simplce fact they're Imperial Knights. That's the official statement so far I remember it.

[Tags]

Well it's a possibility then, get something official down and keep the IK in mind, they do look pretty sweet.

[Guest Anonymous]

Just spitballing but why have we not developed or at least drafted a CRL at this point?

 

Three years ago (time flies, eh?) Thomas put forth a few questions/comments based on what we knew at the time of the first issues of Legacy and what were the arguments for inclusion into the Legion. Clarification was provided by Jan (very cool that she made the time to address the issue BTW), the Imperial Knights (read: Imperial Knights) are in employ of the Emperor. The Emperor, although currently dethroned, is all about control of the Galaxy under his rule. Regardless of the means by which he is wresting for control, he is about subjugation (read: Bad). Granted currently the Emperor is having the Knights cooperate with the Jedi and the now Rebel contingent, which consequently is parallel to Palpatine’s time as Chancellor and having the clone troops work under Jedi leadership, but it’s temporary.

Unfortunately there have been very few sets armor produced, four I believe from different makers that are mostly “one offs” that fit the bill, Thomas’ by far being the closest but still not 100% accurate in his opinion. OK, so what? There is plenty of reference material available that could be put together in a draft that at the minimum would do a few things; provide the Legion with a plausible costume CRL for future acceptance, and give costumers interested in creating a movie quality IK costume a good start until a complete costume is submitted for review and the costume accepted as a standard to work to.

All of the “are they good guys or bad guys?” semantics aside, at the very least we should be working towards a CRL. Most if not all of the current ones started from someone producing a Legion worthy costume and then developing the CRL afterwards (sometimes in conjunction with) to allow for other costumers to strive for acceptance should they choose that character/costume. Does it have to work in this manner for the Imperial Knights? Or instead of discussing for another three years shouldn't we be doing?

[Twi'lek Pam]

Just spitballing but why have we not developed or at least drafted a CRL at this point?

 

Because you haven't started writing it yet. Better get cracking, dude!

 

Pam

[Guest Anonymous]

I knew that was coming as soon as I hit reply

[Twi'lek Pam]

I knew that was coming as soon as I hit reply

 

 

LOL! I do like to be predicable. (It soothes everyone into a false sense of security and makes it easier to really stun them when I do something completely unpredicable later on.)

 

Seriously, though, the standards are a community project of the detachments and the legion. Anyone who wants to help move things along is more than welcome to help us with the research and the writing. It is a truly massive job, and I welcome the help.

 

Pam

[The Clone Emperor]

Good evening,

 

Let's not confuse the issue, complete the costume and make it match the reference for 501st consideration.

 

Standards for the Imperial Knight based on the unit's canon armour were written up years ago.

 

Then a second set of standards was written based on a commonly available but not 100% kit.

 

There's no question about Imperial Knights being approved in the Legion, at least not to this Legion Membership Officer's eyes.

 

But I have yet to see a completed suit based on the and matching the reference material.

True, a comic artist sometymes misses drawing some details in the costumes of their characters. With the Imperial Knight the Imperial Cog on a bracer in one panel might be forgotten, or the back hand protector in one frame is left off for a panel and put it back on in the next. Those studying the amour for any length of tyme already know the details of the costume.

 

Please don't try to shoe horn an inaccurate costume into the Legion just because that kit is readily available. Instead, do like every other costume in the Legion and strive to match the reference.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[The Clone Emperor]

I was recently asked to reply on the topic of Imperial Knights in the Legion, in response to another individual’s request for the approval of his own IK. This is my reply;

 

I would approve the Star Wars Legacy Imperial Knight for 501st Legion Membership.

 

Legacy, by the way, is an active comic with new issues still appearing on the shelf. And in the current 2014 Legacy story arc Imperial Knights continue to feature prominently.

For the purpose of this discussion, we are talking about a unit character and NOT a product, NOT a vendor’s liberal interpretation a character. Though a vendor may find it easier to vac form/sell a kit to others without paying heed to reference, 501st approval is based on accuracy. Some of the suits approved for the Rebel Legion as Imperial Knights do not match the references for the armour. This is easily tested against the overwhelming abundance of reference that eight years of production gives a character.

 

Imperial Knights of the first Star Wars Legacy served Emperor Fel. And as such they were ordered never to engage New Republic troopers or Jedi. They did in fact battle the multitudes of Sith lead by Darth Krayt. And while they serve the Emperor, an Imperial Knight’s first duty is to prevent the corruption of the Dark Side from ever taking hold of the Imperial Throne again. They are bound to destroy the Emperor who embraces the Dark Side. For this reason they are seen as good guys by the Rebel Legion.

 

Imperial Knights have also been corrupted or impersonated:

Imperial Knight Niin defected to the Sith after killing Empress Fel.

Emperor Fel fell to the Dark Side.

Darth Wredd simply stole Imperial Knight armour.

 

There are other examples. These exceptions are unimportant to main argument.

 

I asked Jan Duursema about her thoughts on entering the Light Side of the Force serving Imperial Knights into the 501st Legion back in 2007, before even the first evil Knights appeared. She pointed out that the Legacy Era 501st Stormtroopers are loyal to the Emperor. As are the Imperial Knights. The defining factor is simple; They are Imperials.

 

Imperials who serve the Greater Good. Like Mara Jade, they serve the Emperor believing that they are helping the citizens of the SW Galaxy. And like Mara Jade, they go against the Emperor’s command once they see his motives are evil. Unlike Mara Jade, the Imperial Knights remain Loyal to the Empire.

 

I have also submitted my own costume for approval. This will be the third tyme I have attempted 501st approval of my Imperial Knight.

[Allfather]

Thomas, Could you link to the original CRLs for this costume as I have no clue what got changed and what would have to be modified from the only kit I know of that can be bought by those of us without the skills or equipment to actually make our own from scratch. I see a few variations in the armor and the soft parts between costumes and artwork (much like many of the other comic-based costumes and even movie/TV ones) and don't know for certain exactly which, specific version you would consider the one all the IK costumes have to be based off of. I like to make my costumes as accurate as possible (even my customs if based on something specific). But, if no one openly questions or offers notes on what would make something actually pass muster when looking at drawings which can be interpreted in multiple ways depending on the artist, colorist, and even the printer...makes things virtually impossible to get it "just right" in everyone's eyes. I, for one, would appreciate any help I can get as I have wanted to do this costume since the first time I saw it in the comics (even shot you a message about yours right after you "finished" it).

[Allfather]

Now that the 1st IK has been approved (congratz, again, Thomas ), how long do you all think it will be before a written CRL is available for the costume? I am restarting my IK thanks to a smaller set of the armor and would really like to get it as close as I possibly can with my limited skills and equipment.

[wildabeast]

congrats on the approval Thomas...as always superb craftsmanship