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KOTOR II - Nihilus Build and Game vs Current (09/2019) CRL Comparison


TeaJay

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Hi everyone! My name is T.J. Jones, I've been a member of the legion since 2016 with a handful of approved costumes. For the last couple years I've been on the fence about doing a KOTOR II Darth Nihilus, but today's the day that I dive deep into the details and maybe possibly aid in updating the CRL. I would appreciate feedback along the way as we talk about current CRL comparisons to the KOTOR II video game and my progress in creating the costume.

Tonight, I wanted to focus one of the most iconic parts of the costume... the mask. The left is a screenshot from the PC version of the game and the right is current CRL image for the KOTOR II mask.

lL83rec.png

 

A: The dark silver design located at the top of the mask from the in-game character has a much more triangular shape with thin tapering circles that slowly shrink in size which appears to be about 5 to 6 rather than the current CRL mask that has a much bulkier non-triangular shape with only 3 tapering circles on each side, which seems to more closely model that of the COTF version of the costume rather than the KOTOR II video game.

B: The center forehead circle is much too large in the current CRL mask vs the in-game character model. Three layers appear to be present in both but the in-game model is a much tighter grouping than that of the current CRL.

C: The in-game model's red paint details stop in-line with the top of the center forehead circle. The current CRL has the red line going above/past the circle detail just a bit too far.

_________________

I can see where a debate could occur with this because if you take a look at the video game's box art; the mask tells a different story.

 

5UnoS5V.png

 

The upper portion of the mask's silver detail that is triangular in shape in the video game actually appears circular on the box art. Also the center circle on the forehead appears much wider (somewhat similar to current CRL). So does that mean both should be allowed? If not, and you'd have to pick one, I'd imagine you'd use the mask from the in-game model rather than the box art. 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Another thing to note is that in-game you can see a faint visual representation of a face, specifically the eyes, nose, and lips. However, on the box-art these features are not present. So in this case I could see an argument of wearing the blackout mask found on the COTF CRL because these facial features are present in-game. But if you go off of what is portrayed on the box art, the "Face Covering" zentai-style black spandex mask that is currently on the KOTOR II CRL would be acceptable. 

 

Should both be acceptable or would the in-game model be the preferred choice? What do you think?

____________________

 

To go into some detail about where I've been looking for different components of this costume... I started out at Wicked Armor. I've sent a few messages over to Melanie and she's been very helpful. Based on the current photos on their website, I noticed that the robes were just a tad short as you can see from this in-game screenshot the lower robes / skirt gathers around the boots of Nihilus and spills out onto the floor:

3oRHo6Q.png

 

However in some cases you will find the robes hovering above the ground, specifically when he's in combat (perhaps due to the wider stance) -- but it is a video game model from the early 2000's after all:

Y9EB7PM.png

 

So I definitely agree with the existing CRL statement for the skirt that says: "The skirt is made with enough material to create a gathered effect around the body, and is not tight or form-fitting."; but the statement of "The skirt is made of opaque black fabric that reaches nearly to the floor." could be debatable.

What are your thoughts on the length of skirt/lower robes?

----

 

For the gloves, a handful of in-game characters have them up to their elbows, Darth Nihilus is no different. 

z6ymVfe.png

 

I was able to source some plain elbow high gloves on an etsy store:  (17") Long Genuine Leather Opera Length Party plain Evening Elbow Gloves. I ended up purchasing a pair in large, but they turned out to be too small for my hands so I'm in the process of returning them for an XL.

 

----

 

I think this is a good post to kick things off, feel free to share your thoughts!

 

Thanks everyone!

 

 

Edited by TeaJay
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Welcome to the joyful and wonderful world of deciphering video game files that were old and used to create CRLs before the time of CRL standards! 

 

It's a constant battle to try and get old CRLs up to snuff these days because unlike today, the CRLs were made in a time when you didn't need 360° detail references, or even similar references! Take CotF Nihilus. Homeboy uses 2 references that don't even agree with one another, which makes writing said CRL a pain in the ass. 

 

Now, with KOTOR II Nihilus, I would say either version is acceptable for the mask because both of the masks fall under the title of KOTOR II. That, and I had to search far and wide just to find a Nihilus who wasn't using a CotF mask instead of the one that should have been used.

 

This honestly all comes down to the fact that MWA was selling the wrong mask with the wrong costume to make things easier, when it just made things hell for us on a costume level. 

 

With the face part, it would be possible to do a CRL version update where it calls specifically for mask A and face A and then mask B with face B as the two separate versions. BUT this would require that we have photos of mask A face A and mask B face B to do. Not impossible, just a pain in the ass to find. Honestly, if you're planning on doing the in game proportions, it would be a possibility. 

 

Now with that, I've been trying to get the CRL finished for 3 years, but either people didn't have the correct costume version, or they didn't send the photos. So, if you do plan on seeing it through to get the in game proportions version approved, we can totally revisit this for options regarding CRL updates. :)

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On 9/25/2019 at 7:18 AM, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

So TJ... are you just doing all my costumes now? :razz:

That's awesome you're going down this path, best of luck!

 

Haha! Hey Bobby! I guess so. I've been obsessing over this one as of late. I've been pouring in a great bit of time on researching the in-game model. 

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Best of luck! I have the COTF Version (I really prefer the look of the weathered/tattered cape and the quilted sleeves), but while I might have a different version if you have any questions reach out and ask.

And use Maudra Nina's knowledge, she won't steer you wrong.

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I have started marking changes that will need to be made to the stock Wicked Armor (WA) KOTOR mask. The first change will be the top center "V" shape found on the silver detailing at the top of the forehead.

 

IvSpzDA.png

 

The stock mask does not have the "Y" shaping in the center caused by a narrowing of the top layer of silver detailing, their mask has the top layer taking up the majority of that section, as seen here:

 

wpNWGvx.jpg

 

Another difference in this upper section is the shape of the small raised section in the upper center; it appears to be more oval in shape reaching to the top of the mask rather than the circle seen on the stock WA mask, above.

e0gH7OR.png

 

Next up is the center circle in the middle section of the forehead. The stock WA mask is much smaller, less wide, less bulbous than that found in-game.

 

ZxTAapP.png

 

The red details from inner edge to center of the circle in the middle section of the forehead is also closer in distance than that found on the stock WA mask. When investigating pixel width and making a relative adjustment to the overall scale of the in-game model, the inner edge to center circle appears to be about 1 inch in distance on each side give or take a 1/16th of an inch based on the best I could do with scaling the measurement on the in-game model.

 

sZlhkri.png

 

Unfortunately, the WA mask distance is 1 & 1/4" inch which means both red details will need to move inward by 1/4" inch on both sides.

 

bb0s2Lk.jpg

 

One of the other concerns is that the WA mask has the outline of the red details slightly recessed into the mask, meaning I will need to fill these lines with something. That's where I'm hoping you all come in. WA advertises this mask as an "impact resistant polyurethane plastic", what do you recommend for filler? Can I just use bondo? Whatever I end up using will also likely need to be used to make the center circle slightly larger.

 

Finally, here is a photo of the mask where I've marked with a blue sharpie where things will need adjusted. The upper section's sides will be trimmed down to get the correct shape. The upper small circle will be adjusted to appear oval in shape. The center forehead circle will need its radius increased to better represent the size found within the game. The current red details' silver border edging (which in-game there is no silver to be found around the red details) will need to be filled and the decals will need to be moved inward towards the center so that the distance is 1" from center circle's middle point to the inner edge. Of course once all of this has been adjusted the majority of the mask will be repainted.

 

FxXerUg.jpg

 

Life has been a bit busy, but I'm hoping to tackle this soon and continue with more updates! Any and all feedback appreciated!

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I've continued with the mask modifications tonight, this time adding the correct small top-of-head detail that is flat on top and ovals downward, increasing the size/diameter of the center forehead circle, and filling in the indented outlines found on the WA stock red details. This is now set to dry for the next 24 hours, then some light sanding will begin.

 

This entire mask will also be re-primed and re-painted once all of the physical detail adjustments have been made to match the in-game model. He's a quick photo of the apoxie sculpt applied. I've also been working on the measurements and shape of the red decal/details. The new ones will be hand painted using a stencil that I'm still working on. 

 

HKQK1zV.jpg

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Continuing research on obi height/thickness sizing. At first glance from a random screenshot that I had, it looks like the obi height varies in size depending on where you size the pixels on the belt. Without inspecting it in-game it looks like the obi is anywhere between 1" and 1.25" inches. I plan on fact checking this a bit better by inspecting the in-game model rather than just looking at this screenshot.

 

MVptUqX.png

 

 I've seen some body positions where the character model's textures are likely stretched (specific combat swing stances when he's spinning or when hunched [back portion of obi]) and the obi looks like it is nearly double that, possibly almost 1.75" inches. So at the extreme largest, I would say 1.75" inches max. I would also think that if a CRL change is made, there should likely be some flexibility on this depending on body size of wearer, I would stick between 1" and 1.75".

Edited by TeaJay
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While the mask's apoxie sculpt is setting/drying I began exploring the outer tunic modifications. On the WA stock outer tunic, there are only 5 stitch marks on each shoulder section where the cape connects to the outer tunic. This will need changed as you can see anywhere between 9 and 11 indentations (depending on if you focus on the lighter or darker areas) around each shoulder of the in game model. An eleventh is visible when his neck is turned, however it could be the stretching of the model texture. In reality, for CRL purposes, I would imagine the minimum would be 9 on each shoulder with the maximum of having the stitching go from one side all the way to the other, but this is likely overkill as the hood/cowl drapes in front of the upper outer tunic to hide it. Also note how the upper portion of the padding also tapers to the thinner shape the farther you move away from the neck of the outer tunic.

 

Here are a few photos:

GqOim4l.png

 

STOCK WA (Ignore the light pen coloration, this is my initial marking of cowl distances to the stitching details):

 

DCxppFA.jpg

 

After updates -- one side (left):

mArPCYL.jpg

 

After updates -- both sides:

 

7cRd1lj.jpg

 

 

The placement of the stitching feels similar to how the placement of the "Shotgun shells" of a sandtrooper backpack are; no specific pattern, slightly scattered. I'm assuming this was to show that the attached cape has some weight to it. This specific detail will need to match some of the pleating/gathering of the cape where it is placed onto the outer tunic.

 

That being said, you can tell from the top photo (the one with numbered stitch count), that the front of the cape is gathered quite a bit, which may be a challenge to perfectly achieve in real life because from the back of the costume there seems to be an obvious 5 pleat per shoulder as it flairs flat towards the upper back. Since in 2004 there wasn't much in the way of fabric physics in video games some of these specific features could be up for debate. In real life the 5 pleats per shoulder should eventually even out to a flat look as it goes down the back and towards the feet of the wearer.

 

lqAGkkx.png

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This may evolve in the coming weeks, but this is the list of to-do's before a first full test fit:

 

-- outer tunic chest padding (it appears to only be around his pectoral muscles, it makes you wonder if this is meant to be padding or if Nihilus just has a buff upper torso)
    -- shaping/cutting of padding
    -- attachment to body rather than outer tunic
-- cape to outer tunic connection 
    -- add additional pleating to connecting section of cape (top)
    -- iron the 5 pleats per side all the way down the cape to give shape
-- mask updates
    -- sand/smooth apoxie sculpt that was added to mask

    -- prime and paint mask white
    -- paint silver details
    -- paint red details
    -- create better mask attachment method to blackout mask and back of head
-- re-attach cape to outer tunic ensuring that the cape barely misses the floor.
-- adjust hood/cowl to lay/gather more like the in-game model. Will need to pin/tack down hood in specific locations.
-- inspect skirt's front pleating and gathering at feet

 

 

-------- Items not listed in CRL that I will likely wear to provide full body coverage.

-- To hide any chance that my neck, ears, or hair could be exposed I will be wearing a balaclava or spandex dive hood that will be tucked into the shirt.

-- To hide my legs, even though its highly unlikely that anyone would see them with a long skirt and boots that come below the knee, I will be wearing men's cotton black dance tights.

Edited by TeaJay
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At the tail end of my second to last post, I started to cover the front pleating and rear pleating of the cape. As you can tell from this screenshot there are multiple random small pleats throughout the front of the cape that rests on the shoulders that connects to the outer tunic.

 

xAHqtSR.png

 

With the stock WA cape, it normally has 4 pleats. I had put in a request to WA to add a fifth pleat due to what seems to be 5 pleats upper mid back of the cape -- as noted in a prior post.

Here's a comparison shot of adding additional close small pleating to simulate the gathering effect as show in above screenshot.

 

ESbr9UV.jpg

 

The left portion of this photo shows the additional sewing to give the shoulder section of the cape a more gathered effect. The right side of the photo shows the stock WA (special request) 5 pleats. While the 5 pleats look nice and clean, they do not represent what Darth Nihilus' cape actually looks like.

 

Here's a photo of both sides completed.

oozNF8q.jpg

 

 

Taking a nice up-close shot of the shoulder you can see that I've added tight tiny folds sewn together to get this effect. 

 

je36CQ1.jpg

 

 

The key here is to get lots of the gathering creases/pleating in the front and tops of the shoulders while retaining the five pleats in the upper back of the cape. Once attaching the cape to the outer tunic, I may expand the length of the upper portion of the outer tunic sewing/padding effect closer towards the center to ensure that all of the cape reaches the simulated stitching on the outer tunic.

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Since a fellow member was interested in the height of the KOTOR 2 obi (https://www.theflagshipeclipse.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3352-question-about-the-obi-in-the-crl/). I started doing more digging this afternoon and was able to snag a screenshot (same one found on wookiepedia) of where the obi appears to be approximately 1.667" ~ 1.75" inches in height (again, give or take 1/16" based on pixel scaling). In this specific screenshot you can see portions of the obi either more visible due to the position of Nihilus' torso or it could be a stretching of pixels on the texture model based on its position. As you look towards the right of the photo, the obi begins to narrow or be hidden by the outer tunic... and the left side shows a much wider appearance of the obi:

 

yOi3H3D.png

 

FUFz4qJ.png

 

 

Due to how the obi can appear different heights/thicknesses in different scenes and body positions, this will likely need to be given a range when written up in the CRL. If we had to nail something down specifically, I would say that the obi height should be allowed the flexibility of  1" inch  and 1.75" inches. 

 

Another interesting note, look how flat and almost concave Nihilus' upper and center chest looks like while he's in this position.

 

 

Also, here's a great high res video of the conversation leading up to the fight scene and combat in HD found on youtube -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KqbWKWUhUk

 

Edited by TeaJay
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Last night I spent time adding additional "shape" to the skirt. The stock WA skirt only has a few large pleats at the top that are sewn into the obi. In-game, Nihilus has some folding and creases on the skirt. As seen here:

 

9jLc7hq.jpg

 

It doesn't look sewn, it seems to be just gathered or pleated.

 

I took the stock WA skirt which looks like this:

nwBTPLp.jpg

 

And spent a few hours with my wife, folding, ironing, and starching  over and over again to get a more creased effect. Here's some in-progress shots and the after:

 

U0bzqnx.jpgtkuOcWF.jpg

1UjtnVw.jpg

 

Mimicking a video game model's clothing is extremely different than recreating real-world costumes, as many of you here at TFE already know. I'm currently happy with this result, what are your thoughts?

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Looks good, TJ! 

My KOTOR mask was not based directly on the game model, but I took elements from it, the box art, and this image:

 

KOTOR2Nihilus.jpg

 

I was trying to average things out between the different sources, and the game model does have a darker line around the red areas of the mask suggesting that it is an inlaid material so I think a slight groove around it is appropriate. I will likely make one based directly on the game model in the near future since I have never seen anyone do a really accurate one. The game model has a ton of folds and wrinkles at the base of the hood and where the cape attaches.that I would like to emulate better in future versions, but I think it would be better accomplished with a different fabric.

 

Sorry, Nina. I didn't mean to cause any issues for the Flagship. The CRL KOTOR II Nihilus is not my fabric or mask. I only sold a few of those costumes over the years, sticking more with COTF. I am, of course, entirely approachable and amenable and would prefer to get things right.

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Thanks Rob!

 

Your KOTOR 2 Nihilus mask is extremely close to the in-game model, but I definitely see the likeness from the box art hybrid with the in-game one. Frankly, it is the closest one I've found anywhere online. With just a few minor modifications, it is even closer. I highly recommend to others wanting to do a KOTOR Nihilus to start with WA's mask as a base if they do not want to make one from scratch.

 

The hood does have quite a bit of wrinkles at the base on the in-game model. I still think the hood you've provided can be adjusted to simulate how the base of the hood wrinkles by using additional tie tacks in specific locations; it will likely not be as many, but it should come very close. I was tinkering with it just the other day. The selection of fabric that you currently use is nice, I could see a heavier weighted cotton being used in the future, however that could hold in quite a bit of smell if it's warm outside. Lots more washing if you went with something heavier weight. :) 

 

I also want to give you some props on how you do the "cat ears"/"crown" portion of the hood. It fits so well and looks very sharp.

 

What is the color and vendor of the gray/silver paint you use on the mask or do you mix it? I like the color and would love to continue to use it once I repaint.

Edited by TeaJay
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Here are some photo updates of the mask repainting process. This is to cover up the apoxie sculpt, re-coat the exposed polyurethane near the top of the mask, and move the red details inward by 1/4" on each side.

 

This is prior to the white paint being applied. The apoxie sculpt has be sanded down.

 

8VdcnYu.png

 

Three coats of flat white w/primer were applied and pencil marking the outline of the new red detail locations.

 

cHGZTu1.png

 

Red details painted. The edges of the red will be cleaned up a bit tighter to reduce any "fuzzy edges" that the model paint brush may have caused.

 

PdN26bk.png

 

Things are progressing well. This has been one of my main reference images for the mask along with others in previous posts above. It looks like I need to go back and reduce the width/thickness of the lower tier/section of the upper portion of the mask, here's an image to show what I'm referring to... it looks just a little too thick.

 

rQLvifF.png

 

Edited by TeaJay
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Thanks! I'm nearing completion of the mask. I've brought in the upper silver detail as mentioned above and have nearly completed painted. Just a bit more clean up and then attaching strapping.

 

0uqtwoy.jpg

Edited by TeaJay
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Nicely done! Looks like I'm too late, but the paint I used for the forehead detail is Rustoleum 2x flat black base and Rustoleum Metallics silver metallic.  I look forward to seeing everything come together.

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7 hours ago, WickedArmor said:

Nicely done! Looks like I'm too late, but the paint I used for the forehead detail is Rustoleum 2x flat black base and Rustoleum Metallics silver metallic.  I look forward to seeing everything come together.

 

Thanks Rob! I took photos of the original color that you used and went with a Testors silver metallic, which turned out a little bit lighter. I'm tempted to darken it up just a little more than how it turned out; but from the various in-game screenshots, it sometimes looks silver and sometimes looks like a metallic gunmetal gray. I also went with a black base on top of the white spray paint before I applied the silver.

 

I will be adding the straps back onto the mask soon; I'm on the fence about a 2" or 1" elastic band with sewn elastics to secure it in the rear.

 

From my original To-Do List, I still have a few more things to tackle:

 

-- outer tunic chest padding (it appears to only be around his pectoral muscles, it makes you wonder if this is meant to be padding or if Nihilus just has a buff upper torso)
    -- shaping/cutting of padding
    -- attachment to body rather than outer tunic
-- cape to outer tunic connection 
    -- iron the 5 pleats per side all the way down the cape to give shape
-- mask updates
    -- Swap out the mask attachment method using wider elastics.
-- re-attach cape to outer tunic ensuring that the cape barely misses the floor. (This step may require some additional sewing)
-- adjust hood/cowl to lay/gather more like the in-game model. Will need to pin/tack down hood in specific locations. (additional pin locks and pins have been ordered on Amazon)

Edited by TeaJay
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I've taken a few days off from building this. Should be getting back into the groove later this week. My pin locks and pins have arrived. I'll likely lengthen the stitching details in the upper section of the outer tunic, then reattach the cape and measure cape length to floor to get it properly hovering just off the ground.

Edited by TeaJay
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Quick update, no exciting photos. I've ironed 5 pleats per side all the way down the cape. I've cleaned up the stitching detail on the upper portion of the outer tunic so that the stitching detail reaches to where the hood meets the outer tunic. I've started test cutting foam padding for the upper torso "armor/buffness". Once I get the design scaled to fit my chest, then I'll begin brainstorming the best way to keep it attached under the outer tunic. I'll definitely post pictures of this once I get the cape length corrected to my height with boots on.. It will likely be early next week.

 

My day job has been all consuming as of late and I've picked up a side project that has a hard deadline of end of year., but I won't let that slow me down too much on this costume build!

Edited by TeaJay
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