DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion

[Guest Dark Flower]

So which wiki is the right wiki. Throughout this whole discussion we have been counting similar wiki's as information to go off of. Wiki's are built by users. Yes information has to be clarified as being right and yes maybe ComicVine isn't one of those more 'secure' ones. Information on the internet 'can' be biased.

 

Just let people be what they were. Grandfathering those already SL, new characters make them DS. Still complicates things but annoys less.

 

I have Star Wars Tales #24.

It is a collection of unrelated short stories.

 

[snip]

 

I'm thinking the quote from the ComicVine Wiki might be an internet user's misplaced edit.

Maybe Heavy1973's email reply will have some more info.

[The Clone Emperor]

Good morning,

 

I have seen a number of responses to this thread suggesting Grandfathering. In terms of 501st membership policy, Grandfathering has been strictly avoided. And with good reason. The following is but one example.

 

Many non-bucket heads may be unaware of the controversy the above image illustrates. The first helmet represents what the First Imperial Stormtroopers Detachment considers closer in line to canon appearance of the Stormtrooper helmet. The second is the now infamous FX Helmet. Loved by some, disdained and hated by many, it was part of one of the very first well distributed TK kits in the World. As such, the FX helmet featured prominently in the foundation of the 501st.

A decade later, Legion Founder Albin Johnson models his FX bucket next to another well known Star Wars fan.

 

There are members of the Legion who insist that their fellow members change their FX buckets to another more screen accurate helmet or face becoming inactive. Others have lobbied for refusing membership to individuals who have this helmet. When it was pointed out that our Legion founder, and much of the Japanese Garrison (at the tyme) wore this build the dissenters suggested Grandfathering.

 

Grandfathering used when a new ruling is at odds with existing reality. I believe that when a ruling or policy would in a sense outlaw another long standing tenant that the new ruling should be reconsidered. If the existing ruling proves to be so terribly flawed, it should be overwritten. If we say, well, it was never that bad, lets just “Grandfather” existing instances and apply this new ruling with an iron clad fist all new attempts we create an inequity based on nothing more than tyme of initiation.

 

I do not support giving special approval rights to one member’s costume over another’s.

 

I think all solutions to a given community issue should be heard. Solutions that benefit just the person posting may still help the rest of the community, present and future. I encourage suggestions that consider all membership, not just the individual, and not just this Detachment.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[DarthTagion]

I wholeheartedly support Thomas' message here. And this reason is exactly why we must tread carefully any time we make a significant change to the way we conduct our business. Mistakes in how we do this runs the risk of hurting both our image and our relations. Clearly this is causing some turmoil in our unit and the decisions made must be in regards to both immediate impact, and long-term impact. The worst thing we can do is damage the relations between our members. We're all passionate about what we're into, and to the degree we might be some of the 'most' passionate. That is why we must tread lightly or risk an inferno of emotions.

[Kylo]

While my opinion means nothing to the case I 100% agree with you guys, its all or nothing, and as it should be. I am not for the Grandfathering either, I see it being a big center of confusion for any Programmer anyways and it would make no sense to the general public who could frankly care less about it. I am all for confusing less people. ^.-

[M.J]

Thomas you have opened a door to another issue.

 

An example: A member joined 5 years ago... hand made their armor to the spicks available at the time in the 501st they trooped every year made 501st proud raised money for charity , then in their detachment more interest in that person's costume, a CRL with photo's was placed up, their Armor isn't up to the standards of the CRL.....What do you do? do you kick them out? do you tell them they cannot troop? We all strive for excellence but does that mean we start to be a dictatorship, not caring for our members? We are talking about letters here people just letters, if one person is passionate to keep there past letters may I ask why not?

your going to be hard pressed to find a solution the % will take the prize but of course not everyone will be happy, why can we not make that happen ....members are important.

I'm from Australia so Grandfathering effect I have no idea what that is. I just suggested the letters. as per old members then New.

 

btw the example is not me. The CRL I explained has happened.

[DarthTagion]

There's a couple of issues there MJ, sadly. Which is part of the mistakes that happen from time to time. One big confusion and I know Thomas will back this statement up: CRL is a Reference, not a Requirement.

 

In situations like that (without risking derailing this thread too much), I have run into similar situations when making recommendations to the LMO, in particular reference to some Revans which have been approved in the last calendar year. When new information comes up, I often make the suggestion that the old way is what we 'require', as a minimum, and the new way is what we 'strongly encourage for excellence'. That way we do not damage our current membership, but we also give everyone the information we have developed in order to better portray our costumes more accurately. While at the same time not getting too elitist among our membership because one member has an upgrade that another does not.

 

Sadly, what you described about giving current members a pass and making the change for future members is exactly the grandfathering that has been mentioned which we are seeking to avoid.

[M.J]

The CRL I beg to differ, is a requirement, if you don't meet those standards your costume will not be approved. I wasn't taking about the scout in my previous post but shall use it as another example, my scout was approved 2 years ago if I belt my daughters (to which I'm doing now) to the same spicks as mine hers will be knocked back. So they are not just a guidelines they are a requirement. My son's is now what the current CRL has placed.

In saying that I have no ill towards any of it, I just go with the flow and upgrade to match my kids, I'm like everyone else and go bugger, but it's cool easy fixed.

 

So you may find quite a few scouts not matching each other, is that a bad thing? Or is it just awesome when you see a lot together and wouldn't notice a thing. Same goes with this two lettering idea. when your in a parade or trooping a child's birthday will the lettering change how you act or your appearance ?

I'm only bringing up the point changes are constant habit of late ATM how you/501st handle them will be the issue.

I'm involved with two other CRL that changed in two different detachments and in future who would say they may change again, new products new techniques are always presenting them selves . We must never forget the troopers our members. This lettering idea will not please everyone what ever changes you make must please everyone, as per the CRL the older troopers never needed to be concerned as they where still approved the new recuit's just had to go with it.....get my drift?

 

Btw I'm not arguing its so hard to show emotion, I'm just chatting. To old to argue my life is too short in more ways than one .....

[tk826]

* I must first say, I'm so happy you pointed out the word "chatting".

I'm hoping that no one gets the impression there is anger involved in any aspect.

 

 

Some side info on a few of the points mention just above:

 

The CRL's...

 

They were originally intended to by "Costume reference guides", open to at least some interpretation.

During the last administration, an individual became a bit overzealous and made them strict requirements.

I have, over the course of the last year sought out the opinions of each and every detachment leader, as well as many GML's, in an effort to relax the strict language that was added, over the two years prior.

 

For example... changing the instances of the word "Required" to "Recommended".

and, the phrase "must have"... to "should have".

 

As of this day I have received not one disagreement with this idea.

I believe Thomas is also a supporter of this.

 

As it stands right now, meeting the base CRL's are a mandatory requirement for acceptance.

This includes the "rule" that if there are changes to a CRL, those members have a year to make alterations, or risk having that costume removed from their roster.

Personally, I have not and have no desire to, hunt down and remove costumes that do not meet the latest CRL standards. First, because of what I mentioned above, and second... I believe that all costumers in the legion strive to have excellent costumes. They, and those around them, continually make changes and updates,if and when they are able.

 

I have also made great progress in bringing back to the detachments the ability to decide what is or is not included in a character CRL. The LMO team has made over 1500 changes, additions and updates to the various CRL's this past year... With he exception of photos (that come from individual members), 99% of those updates have come from within their respective detachments.

 

Some detachments insist that the CRL's be very strict, even with minute details.

Others are fine with relaxed standards.

 

As stated, I feel that if those above words and phrases are altered back to their original meaning, a CRL can be as strict or as loose as any detachment feels they should be, because they will once again be GML "Guides" and not the "be all - end all" of costume requirements.

 

Grandfathering...

As The Clone Emperor and DarthTagion mentioned, it was determined to be a poor solution quite a long time ago, and I agree with that assessment.

 

Letters...

If all goes well, we have a new legion applicant building a "Force Hound".

Another dark side force user, which is not a Sith Lord.

"Preparing for the future" not only pertains to the upcoming films and television shows, it is happening

(and needed) right now.

 

 

What else...

 

Wikis...

Although information listed in a user editable wiki is often referenced by many, I personally do not rely on them. I make great effort to track down the original, individual sources of said information.

I do use the wiki's to begin a search, but only to collect the "notes" which are listed at the bottom of the pages, to verify the original information.

 

I'll leave this very casual chat post, with this...

 

If a few of you (we have not heard any word from the other 95+ now DS members)

so desire to call your characters Sith Lords, please submit... anything.

We'll take a half sentence from the third level of a video game.

(Sidious calling Maul "Lord", in the movie, was enough to keep him as SL)

A passage from a role playing game instruction book, the editors notes from a novel... anything.

 

The only character to have been moved back so far is one that I personally presented the information for.

I have tried hard to find even the word "Lord" associated with any of the remaining characters, and just can not do it.

Someone mentioned above... "We are the experts".

If this information does exist, you are the most likely to be the ones to know where to look.

If you can't find it... no one can.

 

I can promise this.... If any info is presented, no matter how obscure (although not from a wiki ,

I will make sure the buttons are clicked, the moment it happens.

 

* Also please consider the idea I had mentioned earlier, of making SL "All sith"...and DS "All non-sith".

The Membership team liked the idea.

(The "complications" I spoke of involve adjusting the DZ's accordingly)

[tk826]

Someone just sent in the question...

 

"When Disney redefines what is and what is not canon, will you be retroactively removing characters from the rosters?... Just curious."

 

I am certain that I can speak for the entire membership team when I say,

We would not even dream of doing such a thing.

[Guest Maia]

I have every reference I could find to Lumiya in one of my files from when I was researching her. She is referred to as a Dark Lady of the Sith in the Legacy of the Force novels, Dark Lady in the Marvel Star Wars comics, Lady Lumiya in several places and more specifically than that somewhere as well, but I can't think of where at the moment. I've been marking midterms and am too tired to drag it out of my memory. I will try to dig that information up, if anyone really wants it. Doesn't affect me as I am retired and have an SL designation already (Vader armour).

 

M

[KristaBleez]

The more I have thought on this topic the more I've felt like it doesn't matter what title I have. Sure, losing my SL was shocking. I will have to get some new merchandise and whatnot now, but what matters most to me is trooping and representing the 501st and TFE.

[DisposablHero]

Well said Krista!

[KristaBleez]

Thank you.

[ladyb]

Indeed well said Krista.

 

For me I do like the proposal that those who were involved in Sithly things retain their SL and other Dark Siders are DS. That would result in one of both for my costumes, and that would be fine.

 

I'll be ok either way as noted, but I like that compromise if it could be called that. I can provide sources for my character if we come to that.

[mgranadino]

"...should each of Starkiller's costume a be looked at separately due to the time and power/training at which they were worn?"

I would think yes, and is the reason I feel (based on the reference I've shown above) that the Sith Stalker armor should in fact be considered a Sith Lord.

 

And also the Starkiller: Dark Lord's Armor (Hoth) should be considered a Sith Lord.... In fact, the Sith Stalker was an armor Starkiller only wore after he awakened from the operation's Table.... The two costumes he wore after that were the Dark Lord's Armor (Hoth) (also known as Lord Starkiller) and the Dark Lord armor he wore in Tatooine (currently there is ni CRL for the Tatooine version).... Both of them are Sith Lord costumes...

[tk826]

After some more discussion with Thomas, the membership team, various PM's, and all of you, I believe

a revised version of the above "relaxed idea" is in agreement by all that I have spoken with.

 

Please let me know your thoughts on this:

 

SL = All Sith characters ... (Lord or not Lord makes no difference)

DS = Dark Force characters that are not Sith.

DZ = Characters that are none of the above.

 

I would have to perform another round of research, on each character, to be completely sure,

but I believe that right off the top... Visas, the various Strakillers, and Lumiya would head back.

 

I'm liking it.

Keeps all Sith together, keeps all non-sith together, no need to track down the smaller technical details in the future, and provides for easy organizing of those new characters that are inevitably on the horizon.

[DarthTagion]

I know it hasn't been mentioned yet, but the bright side of a new designator is this:

 

Now all YOUR merch becomes more valuable to the collectors out in the Legion, and we do have some very passionate collectors out there. If you're looking for a diamond in the coal, that'd be it.

[Heavy1973]

SL = All Sith characters ... (Lord or not Lord makes no difference)

DS = Dark Force characters that are not Sith.

DZ = Characters that are none of the above.

 

I would have to perform another round of research, on each character, to be completely sure,

but I believe that right off the top... Visas, the various Strakillers, and Lumiya would head back.

 

I'm liking it.

Keeps all Sith together, keeps all non-sith together, no need to track down the smaller technical details in the future, and provides for easy organizing of those new characters that are inevitably on the horizon.

 

So if I understand this correct then the Visas Marr figure will get the SL back ?

[tk826]

If it is correct that Visas being the apprentice Darth Nihilus makes her Sith...Yes.

[mgranadino]

Totally agree Damian!

 

After some more discussion with Thomas, the membership team, various PM's, and all of you, I believe

a revised version of the above "relaxed idea" is in agreement by all that I have spoken with.

 

Please let me know your thoughts on this:

 

SL = All Sith characters ... (Lord or not Lord makes no difference)

DS = Dark Force characters that are not Sith.

DZ = Characters that are none of the above.

 

I would have to perform another round of research, on each character, to be completely sure,

but I believe that right off the top... Visas, the various Strakillers, and Lumiya would head back.

 

I'm liking it.

Keeps all Sith together, keeps all non-sith together, no need to track down the smaller technical details in the future, and provides for easy organizing of those new characters that are inevitably on the horizon.

[Kylo]

That would be fabulous! I like this idea a LOT

 

Please let me know your thoughts on this:

 

SL = All Sith characters ... (Lord or not Lord makes no difference)

DS = Dark Force characters that are not Sith.

DZ = Characters that are none of the above.

[Guest EmenyZero]

After some more discussion with Thomas, the membership team, various PM's, and all of you, I believe

a revised version of the above "relaxed idea" is in agreement by all that I have spoken with.

 

Please let me know your thoughts on this:

 

SL = All Sith characters ... (Lord or not Lord makes no difference)

DS = Dark Force characters that are not Sith.

DZ = Characters that are none of the above.

 

I would have to perform another round of research, on each character, to be completely sure,

but I believe that right off the top... Visas, the various Strakillers, and Lumiya would head back.

 

I'm liking it.

Keeps all Sith together, keeps all non-sith together, no need to track down the smaller technical details in the future, and provides for easy organizing of those new characters that are inevitably on the horizon.

 

 

So what I am reading, is that Starkiller would be migrated back to the SL designation? Just want to make sure I am reading properly ad not making an assumptions.

[Tags]

Question is how do you define a Sith... Nihilus is safe so won't effect me... Wife however is currently building a Visas, so would be interesting to see which way this goes.

[tk826]

I believe Galen was first seen in the "Force Unleashed" graphic novel, which was release immediately prior to the video game.

The first of his outfits is the TIE Training Gear, and he is "knighted" as Vader's apprentice within the very first few pages.

This would mean (and please correct me if I am mistaken) that the Training Gear, and all costumes afterward would be considered Sith outfits.

[DarthTagion]

I believe Galen was first seen in the "Force Unleashed" graphic novel, which was release immediately prior to the video game.

The first of his outfits is the TIE Training Gear, and he is "knighted" as Vader's apprentice within the very first few pages.

This would mean (and please correct me if I am mistaken) that the Training Gear, and all costumes afterward would be considered Sith outfits.

 

 

As that seems to be the basis you're using (which I'm down with), you are Correct.