DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion

[Kylo]

EDIT: This conversation is for the discussion of the renaming (re-designation) for a number of EU Character costumes for the 501st.

 

 

 

 

ORIGINAL MESSAGE: I must have missed something that went on here some time ago.

Can someone explain why there is a group now called

 

"DS Dark Side"?

http://www.501st.com/members/costumeros ... agoryID=27

 

and Why are Apprentice Sith lords listed in the DS section? Visa versa why are there Apprentice sith lords listed on the Sith Lord section as well?

 

When did this happen?

 

I am asking here because it appears to be Apprentice EU sith Lords listed on the DS section and movie apprentices listed on the SL section O.o

 

Thanks!

[C.Skiles]

no clue. doesn't seem to be anything about it on the legion forums

[Kylo]

Yeah I scoured the forums as well! What the hey?!

 

Why is Starkiller under DS (He is an Apprentice Sith)

Why is Darth Maul under SL?! (He is an Apprentice Sith)

 

Why are Sith Acolytes SL (They are Apprentice Siths)

Why is Visas Marr under DS?! (She is an apprentice Sith)

 

 

I am totally confused as to what happened O.o!

[NavySith]

Has the CRL changed or just the location.

 

Sent from my HTC6990LVW using Tapatalk

[The Clone Emperor]

Good morning,

 

It appears a number of the costumes that have had the designation of SL for years have been redesignated DS as a result of a decision or discussion that I am unaware of. This concerns me deeply as I am the acting Detachment Leader for all of the costumes affected and yet I was not contacted by those making the decision nor can I even find a topic on all the boards that I have access to even discussing the decision.

 

A change in designation does not change a costume’s approval. A rose is still a rose by any other name… But I think a courtesy was missed by not involving our detachment before the decision was made and put into effect. It happens, nothing to have hard feelings over. I would ask that the change be undone until all parties involved can discuss but, I accept that the final decision is up to Legion Command Staff; specifically Legion Membership Officers Damian and Kenneth.

 

I will keep you posted with anything I learn about this event.

[The Clone Emperor]

Good morning,

 

It took awhile for me to find out how this came to be. There was a break down in communication. On the Legion forum, in the Detachment Leaders board, LMO Damian Jorgensen posted a thread at the end of August, 2013 entitled; Letter Designations... Questions 1,2,3,...4...

 

Small wonder, I missed this thread. For three months and five pages, Damian has been discussing the virtues of overhauling Legion ID prefixes, from a mental organization point of view.

 

While the most replies discussed the roles of non-bounty hunter Mandalorians and the consolidation of all Clone Troopers, Damian also raised the concern that not all characters under SL were Sith trained.

 

Yes Mara Jade was trained and influenced by a Sith Master, but her training never included the ways of the Sith.

Asajj has the Darth Tyrannus quote reminding her that she is not Sith.

From both game story line, novelization, and graphic novel Agent Starkiller, Lord Starkiller, and even the Sith Stalker are not trained as Sith. Instead we see a very powerful being, whose dark side powers are yoked by Masters unwilling to reveal their Sith teachings.

 

Or at least this appears to be the thinking of Damian. I only was shown the thread yesterday.

This reorganization is scheduled to affect many ID prefixes.

 

I caution that we keep this development in perspective. In the end, this is a clerical issue. A reorganization of an ID system that over the past few decades has grown out of service. Legion ID prefix does not determine what detachment a costume is discussed in. It does not confer rank or character superiority–

there is none in the 501st.

 

I am now involved in the discussion. I will have a chance to speak with Damian in person tomorrow at our garrison formal. I prefer to put the change to Dark Sider (DS) on hold until a plan for all designations is mapped out, but that is not my call.

 

This discussion is on going. I will continue to update as implications unfold.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[C.Skiles]

although the change does not affect me, I can see those that it does being very upset with this, especially if they have spent money on items that show their SL designator

 

a designator that the legion now wants to change.

[The Clone Emperor]

I raised concern that affected folk will be upset over the change because of personal identification this morning on the Legion Forum, on the private Detachment Leader board;

 

I have had passing thoughts about how TK could well assume the prefixes of TD and TX. Wished CF, with no active representative would just disappear. I even made motions to create a new designation IZ for Imperial Citizen because the DZ category seemed to be the home of beasts and outlaws, and less suited for Imperial Senator and palace dancers.

 

Perhaps this thread is now the place to share and detail how those changes might be implemented.

 

But, I caution, ¿should we?

 

Some members have become understandably attached to their designation, prefix and all.

From trading cards, to engravings on watches, personalized challenge coins, and vanity license plates changing up the long standing designations will affect more than the display on the Legion website.

 

We can argue that a rose is still a rose by any other name.

Folk became upset when we went to the five-digit Legion ID, feeling that TK210 was not as special when read as TK00210. But that the extra zeros were just the way they thought about it, not even the way it was represented in the Legion profile. A handful of concerned members wrote very impassioned lettres on their opposition of the purposed five digit-system. Some offered alternatives that frankly were not as clean or painless to implement. The real growing pain for the five-digit number system came on the staff end. And that was cleared up in under a year.

 

I agree too that the current Legion Designation system could use an overhaul.

 

But I believe that before changes be implemented, that we need to look at the issue as a whole. That is that a the proposition take into account all current Legion Designations, and map all changes and the thought behind it. This way we can see that all changes are given equal consideration.

 

Final authority on making such changes rests in the hands of the Legion Membership Officers. But I also advise that before making changes that will understandably be seen as affecting the membership of a particular detachment, that the input/acknowledgement of detachment leader/liaison be confirmed.

 

I like the idea of an overhaul of the Legion Designation system. But I also believe that even if a great solution for all existing members is found today, tomorrow it may no longer work. The over all solution should bare in mind why we are making these changes today and hopefully minimize the need for overhaul in future.

 

But even if the DS designation sticks, the Legion ID, stands. It could be argued that members affected by this, would be less like to identify by their Legion ID by principal. Dark Side characters as listed are all unique or named characters.

 

The bottom line is that Legion Command is making a effort to better organize the Legion ID system. It should not affect Legion nor Detachment membership participation. Rather it is a clerical revision that affects how Legion profiles are sorted and perceived by public viewership.

 

Please voice your concerns and comments here and I will continue to serve as Detachment Liaison with the Legion Membership Officers.

 

Be well,

Thomas

[Heavy1973]

First I want to say, that you´re doing a great job

 

Second - I´m a pretty new "SL" with my Visas Marr costume, and somehow I do like the Dark Side DS designation for these characters, since, for me, a dark Lord is more Vader then Visas Marr.

 

But with that said, I also wish, that this could be made as a vote for the members, instead of a say so from the LMO, since it´s going to effect a lot of members.

 

Members, who, like you already wrote, has gotten personal things like tattoos, cards, nametags etc. - like me, I´m going to get new NG cards with my Visas on soon. It would be nice to know, what I shall write on it... perhaps only the number for now ?

 

I´m looking forward to see, how this will turn out.

[Guest Dark Flower]

I was at a troop this morning when I heard of this change. I little upset and so I express my opinion.

 

Let us first go by the expression. "What Aint Broke, don't fix it." I think switching the designation if anything will break a lot of things. In reference to the comment about the numbers....well it was going to break cause 3 and 4 digit number only go so far.

 

I have a Visas Marr, and only speaking for her and using the reference from Star Wars Wiki it states "Visas Marr first appeared as a playable character in the 2004 computer and video game Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords..." I know there are many characters in the game but she was trained by a SL...

 

But if they really want to get specific. Sith was originally an ancient species....how many SL are actually of the race still?

 

Yah, some people have shirts etc. that have the SL designation. Are those now void? It is silly to change something that ain't broke and very costly to those. Maybe before NEW ones are made, they think really hard before officiating the designation...

 

Regarding the Legion organizing. Seriously by making more categories you could be making it more difficult especially with characters already being classified as something already. But also, DS is also a dumb abbreviation. That classifies a lot of characters. We are almost ALL Dark Side. Its almost like they dumb'ed down the classification. In a sense.

 

As always Thomas you are doing a great job, I was just surprised they didn't contact you directly regarding this very topic that has a MAJOR affect on our detachment.

 

In the end, I know based on the merchandise I have that I am SL!

 

Thanks so much for keeping us up-to-date.

[C.Skiles]

looks like all the former Flagships SL's have been removed from the flagship CRL page.

 

 

I dont know where they put them?

[Kylo]

I am only concerned (not angry btw) for the same reasons Mr. Thomas has brought up. While really its small beans cash wise I have a license place, license plate holder, trading cards and now my legion ID all with

 

SL-13377

 

Also as a SL what was/is really nice is I was granted full access to the Sith Lord forums. Will that stop now that I am DS? I doubt they will go back and delete me but I wonder who this will affect after me.

 

I do like it. Its just a touch shocking to see that on the front page.

 

So.... who's making the detachment forums for the whopping 100 members haha

 

Thank you so much for all the information you've given us thus far sir! ^.^

[Nefthys]

I agree with Heavy1973 that perhaps this kind of thing should have been put to a vote. It would have been nice to know that these changes were being discussed and inform those who would be affected. Thank you for looking into this Thomas and getting us the information. While I am not affected by the change, I know there are others in our garrison who are upset.

 

Cheers,

Nef

[The Clone Emperor]

Good afternoon,

 

Amidala, can you please edit the topic of this thread to read DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion

This is an important topic and I do not want interested parties to miss it.

 

I spoke with Damian this weekend.

 

Damian is pushing to see designations changed based on role. He clarified that he based the DS distinction concentrating on who was a Sith LORD. Basically those with Darth in their title.

 

As discussed earlier, these are the currently approved characters which are "non"-sith lords...

 

Asajj Ventress (Dark Jedi / Dark Acolyte)

Brakiss (Dark Jedi)

Lumiya (Dark Lady of the Sith)

Mara Jade (Emperor's Hand/ Force User)

Maris Brood (Dark Force user)

Starkiller (Sith apprentice)

Visas Marr (Dark Force user)

Savage Opress (Night Brother / Sith apprentice)

 

- Night Sisters -

Asajj Ventress

Dark Force Witch

Karis

Mother Talzin

Sith Witch

 

Posting this here as a first heads up, before the designation is assigned.

This was posted on December 25th, in the five page thread Letter Designations... Questions 1,2,3,...4... visible only in the Detachment Leader forum. I have egg on my face for not seeing this thread. Damian did not consider that this grouping just happened to affect only members of our detachment. Those other DL’s that did participate in the discussion had nothing at stake when they gave their support of the change to DS. One officer volunteered to make the DS frame sets, but did not happen to send advance word to myself. I am a bit stymied that this happened, but it is not undoable.

 

I believe an overhaul of the Legion Designation system would make sense, “on paper.” In the strictest terms it has been “broken” for years. I served as LMO for four years and after consideration, I decided it would cause more upset than it would be worth to make the two lettre designations agree with SW canon as defined as canon at a given moment. I felt that the addition of a subcategory addressed that issue nicely;

SL - Darth Maul

 

Notice Darth Maul, the apprentice to Darth Sidious is still classified as a Sith Lord. If the division was based strictly on Mastery, the title of Lord, Maul might well be placed in DS and Mother Talzin should be back in SL.

 

I had first assumed the division was based on who was trained as a Sith. With that criteria the division makes sense to me at least for all characters purposed with the exception of Visas Marr.

 

I will post a revised version of my thoughts here to the Detachment Leaders forum and let our fellows know that a few TFE members have begun to express their concern. I think more of our membership would be upset if they knew about this. I'd like to put the word out on FB but, Facebook is not the proper arena for internal affairs of the Legion.

 

Please spread the word. Your input is vital.

[The Clone Emperor]

In addition to the concerns detailed above, I presented this point to the LMO's and members of the DL forum;

 

One member stated “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

 

Pluto comes to mind. Folk steamed about Pluto losing its planetary designation. But when you consider what it means to be a planet, Pluto really does not fit;

(I was in charge of solar system graphics for EB when the controversy hit.)

 

The World had to change its text books and more. Folk were furious. But in the end, science won out. It made sense and nothing significant changed except our understanding of the Universe.

 

¿Will changing our two lettre designations have as profound an effect? Clearly not. And if we force the change across the board 501st membership will adjust. We must ask though, ¿Is this change not already address in the sub-category descriptions of each character? If we make this change according to current canon understanding, ¿will not the revision become obsolete with the next Disney change to the canon story line? ¿Might we be setting the Legion up even more conflict by setting this precedent now? And while I agree membership officers need to make the final call, ¿should not the will of those affected be polled first?

 

I think a moratorium should be invoked on further changes to the designation system until these questions can be answered. Thank you for your consideration.

[Kylo]

Done sir!

 

Thank you so much! Let us know what you find out further!

[DarthBrute]

This is just a big change and it does make me wonder what is going to happen with TFE in the near future. Does the new designation also related to the EU scrapping by LucasFilms? If it doesn't but what does this hold for TFE?

 

 

*Made this a sticky item**

[KristaBleez]

This does make me sad because I have a lot of merchandise with SL on it.

[DisposablHero]

I'm not entirely sure how to reply to this as a Darth Nihilus. It's a fairly confusing subject for a number of reasons:

 

1) It's seems unconscionable to not consult with the members that are affected by this decision (eg. TFE members) let alone our DL.

 

2) I understand the ID change as regards to 501st merchandise is not really a concern to those making the decision (they didn't make us buy anything with the designations) it's more than a little rude not to acknowledge the financial impact this has on the membership.

 

3) How does this affect the boards? Does this mean all the costuming info and board membership for "Darths" like myself move over to the SL detachment? To be honest I found it odd that the "Darths" weren't over there already but this has become my home, even if I'm not the most outspoken.

 

Basically in the end it comes down to the sheer rudeness of it I guess. For no one involved to make sure that Thomas had been made aware of the discussion is bizarre.

 

Oh well, as usual we cogs just have to wait and see what happens.

[Guest EmenyZero]

Current SL costume's should be grandfathered in, and then the designation should be used for any future costumes and such that would fall under. I have quite a bit of stuff that says SL for me, and its quite upsetting to find this out...

[DisposablHero]

I agree with when it comes to the merchandising point, but much as I'm loathe to I'd have to disagree with the grandfathering. It would really have to be an all or nothing (I think most of us would side with nothing) otherwise it would be incredibly confusing to have a costume with 2 separate designations depending on when you joined.

[The Clone Emperor]

Good evening,

 

A handful of members have now contacted me privately for the inside scoop on this topic. I have been redirecting folk to this thread because I find it more efficient to have the information in one place.

 

I realize that there have been some outstanding questions raised in this thread and elsewhere that I would like to address.

 

¿CRLs, Where did they go?

The CRLs that are associated with characters currently designated as Dark Side (DS) are still in place but the 501st Legion database will require additional tuning for them to reappear for public access. The 501st Legion has a web team of its own, but recoding the database usually falls to Darren Blum. (He deserves accommodation for his work.) Going forward, they should appear on the 501st Legion website again, under The Flagship Eclipse’s portion of the CRL.

 

¿It the CRL for my character is not visible, does that mean I am no longer an active memeber/ does that mean the costume I am making will not be accepted by the 501st?

First and foremost, CRL does not stand for costume requirement list. CRL is the abbreviation for costume reference library. I made this banner which now appears in all CRL entries to help drive this point home;

¿What is the difference? The CRL was originally envisioned as showcasing the best examples of individual costumes and the basic details of their construction. We did not want to promote a particular armour maker, or one individual’s interpretation of a character over another. Instead, the CRL was meant to highlight information and considerations as collected throughout the 501st Legion. Some CRL’s came from the Detachment that the character was officially discussed in. Some were assembled by other Legion members who simply had the tyme and access to photos of member’s costume in question.

 

Some costume hopefuls, GML’s and even LMO’s go no further than the CRL's to validate a costume. I caution that a given Legion CRL entry should be seen as excellent reference, but that additional research and review may be called for. That there are valid options that may not have been included in a given CRL that can easily be verified before turning down a costume.

 

And then some costumes, often Expanded Universe, have not been made before and do not have a CRL. Or only have one example in the Legion. I would be very cautious about basing a costume on the personal interpretation of another costumer. That is what research is for.

 

The missing CRL’s should reappear once the database is sorted. In the meantyme, most CRL’s related to The Flagship Eclispe appear on our forums under each character discussion thread. If a character does not have a CRL entry, or costume detail explanation started, feel free to begin a post under the character’s discussion thread. Be sure to point to visual reference, citing publication. (Deviantart and Wikipedia are not valid publications.)

 

¿How will Disney’s new push to sort canon and non-canon EU affect my membership/potential membership?

Expanded Universe once meant non-canon. EU events and characters happened outside of G-canon (George Lucas movies.) But some EU became really popular ($$$.) And having that canon label made some franchises even more ($$$) popular. In my experience, nothing under the SW banner gets thrown away. Some aspects will rise and fall in popularity. It is the copyright holder’s business to use that popularity to the best of their ability.

 

But that is not the mission of the 501st Legion. We make and celebrate accurate costumes of villains, Imperials, and Dark Side aligned characters from the Star Wars Universe as a whole. Whether Disney calls it canon or EU, or EU cannon, characters from media baring the SW license have been acceptable for 501st membership consideration. And I do not see that changing. It is the core of what the 501st Legion stands for.

Be well,

Thomas

[Guest EmenyZero]

I agree with when it comes to the merchandising point, but much as I'm loathe to I'd have to disagree with the grandfathering. It would really have to be an all or nothing (I think most of us would side with nothing) otherwise it would be incredibly confusing to have a costume with 2 separate designations depending on when you joined.

 

I was saying grandfather in the current characters that are listed as SL, and any new ones that come along get a new Designation. Such as anything out of EP7, new books, and so on. When Joe Bob the red light saber wielder comes in the next book, movie, comic, and so on. Then have the DS start for that.

 

If what I'm saying makes any sense.

[Guest broodingventress]

I find it disheartening that they did not think to send you, Thomas a PM seeing as you had not been participating in the discussion, because it does happen that people miss things on the boards. Secondly, I actually would be sad to lose my SL designation and I do have items that I have paid for with SL as my designation. I understand that they believe an overhaul is needed however I put in my two cents that it should come to a vote, as I'm sure there are others who will be upset about the loss as well

[The Clone Emperor]

A few Flagship Eclipse members have looked longingly at becoming members of the Sith Lord Detachment.

 

Long-tyme members of this detachment could tell you that this board exists because at the tyme of our founding both the SLD staff and the majority of the SLD membership voted against including any non-movie characters in their Detachment. Their motto echoed their disdain of all things EU: SLD, The TRUE Sith Lord Detachment.

 

That ugly episode is now behind us and the SLD of today openly welcomes our most popular characters. This is the way it should have always been. One imaginary spaceman is no more and no less “true” than another imaginary spaceman. As a Legion we should celebrate and bond together.

 

Still, the territory and popularity that The Flagship Eclipse currently enjoys was hard won. It seems odd to me that any of our membership would prefer have their characters moved to another detachment, (especially to the one detachment that once thought so little of your costume efforts that it forced The Flagship Eclipse into existence.)

 

Detachment alignment of a character is decided by detachment membership and between detachments. DL’s report that preference to the LMO(s) and when in doubt, the LMO must make a decision on which detachment a character will be represented under on the 501st Legion database.

 

I am olde guard. I am not about to recommend EU characters be reassigned to another detachment on a whim. I will listen to the detachment as a whole and report your will to the LMO, but I stand against hopping ship. I am proud of the work this Detachment has achieved. I hope even our newer members can appreciate the efforts of The Flagship Eclipse and share in that pride.

Be well,

Thomas