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DS: Dark Side Legion Designation Discussion


Kylo

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The idea of using a broader and less restrictive criteria has been suggested.

Widening the scope would move a couple/ few characters back to SL (including Lumiya and Marek), and the Acolytes would remain unchanged. I can't yet guarantee it's success, as it would technically be incorrect (considering SL = Sith Lord), and at the same time, I am not an all encompassing decider.

But, I am all for a plan that better prepares for the future, more accurately describes designations, and makes the most people happy as possible.

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Guest Dark Flower

So what you are saying those who have that the shirts, the license plates, the window decals, the patches, the 'permanent' Tattoos, etc. are SOoL.

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To make things even more interesting why not

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Tusken Raider = TR

Storm Trooper = ST

Snow Trooper - SnT

Imperial Officer - IO

Tie Pilot = TP

Biker Scout = BS

Clone Troopers = CT

Royal Guard = RG

.....the list goes on, and on and on obviously.

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And a long list looks completely ridiculous.

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SL and always SL... I will be calling myself that instead of explaining to the populace of the Administrative flaws.

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As a newcomer trying to make sense of detachments and prefixes I must say that I still feel a bit confused.

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From the start I figured that different detachments had their prefix and that was that. I soon learned that wasn't the case. In most case.

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There seem to be many ways and traditions of grouping costumes.

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Some detachments are organised by the environment (e.g. Blizzard and Krayt), some by their imperial army function (e.g. infantry, pilots, artillery, Cavalry and specialists) and some by their origin (e.g. Clones and EU).

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That, at least, seems to be the overall idea even though it seems it's a bit loosened now.

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For me as a newbie I still feel that it's difficult to place a character if it's something outside the OT.

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While it's unfortunate that the reorganisational cleanup seem to have affected only one detachment and specifically those of SL-prefix I feel there's merit in an overhaul of the way the costumes are grouped.

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As I see it now there are too many different division based on different levels/criteria.

E.G.

Functional - Officers, Infantry, Scouts, pilots, Specialists, Artillery, Guards...

Departments - MEPD

Geographical - Hoth (cold), Tatooine (desert)...

Era - Clone Wars, OT

Origin - Concepts, EU, OT...

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As an example (as far as I understand)

The incinerator trooper is a specialist trooper (Spec ops) based in the infantry and the stormtrooper armour (TK) that has its origin in the Expanded Universe.

So for me the incinerator trooper would make sense in any of the three detachments. Considering Special ops largely consists of EU characters I'd say there is more than one correct answer here. Currently the Incinerator Trooper is a TK and in FISD.

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I'm very new still and I'm trying to get a better understanding of the situation and the organisation. So please bear with me.

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I really don't know how to best organise this all but I do feel that there's a lot of room for confusion and I feel that in the long run it might be good with an overhaul of the classification system.

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Maybe origin (EU, OT, PT, CW) should be one umbrella level above it all.

Maybe another umbrella should be Army - Others

Maybe Army should be further divided into functional detachments (e.g. infantry, pilots,...) with variant sub groups (e.g. Infantry - cold climate assault troopers...)

Maybe Others could be further divided into cultural/geographical/political affiliations (e.g. Mandalorians, Bounty Hunters, Denizens of Tatooine...)

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Well... I do enjoy thinking about systems and matrices :)

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Anyway. Just wanted to share some outside thoughts on this. I only have a TK (OT, ANH, Stunt) as of yet and all these issues seems far away from the TKs now.

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As a newcomer I must say I see why there's merit to the overhaul even though I do not assume to know the best way of going about it.

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Everyone involved will have their work cut out for them and it will not be an easy task to keep order without having to make some uncomfortable decisions.

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I'll do my best to follow the reasoning and ideas behind the ongoing work with it.

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Thank you for your time and effort.

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I can see Where Damien is coming from ....on paper it is a good idea but it maybe a little late.

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May I suggest this option: example when some CRL's where overhauled previous members had the option of staying as per the original approval or upgraded to match the new recruits, members that are under SL atm are still SL but can have the option to be a DS, Only New Members approved will be DS ....so the older members will be classed under SL/DS. Similar to a married and maiden name. When the DS or other initials receive positive feed back, you may find others will fall into place.

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Pointing out the CRL's the Pathfinders upgraded their requirements for CRL, mine was before the upgrade my son was after, I added to match those around me even thou I didn't have to, this may also be with TKID.

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Just a thought

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Past SL - COTF Nihilus and future Sith Stalker: Tattooine Variant chiming in...

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Does the canon/non-canon issue make a difference? I ask specifically related the TFU DLC and more specifically, the Tattooine variant of the Sith Stalker referred above by Damien as Lord Starkiller and refrred to directly by Sidious as "my Apprentice."

406967-star-wars-the-force-unleashed-ultimate-sith-edition-xbox-360_zps7ec3123c.jpg

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I know the DLC was a 're-imagined' storyline but, in that storyline SS is a "Lord" and as such, should be bestowed the SL designation IMHO.

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Guest EmenyZero
I can see Where Damien is coming from ....on paper it is a good idea but it maybe a little late.

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May I suggest this option: example when some CRL's where overhauled previous members had the option of staying as per the original approval or upgraded to match the new recruits, members that are under SL atm are still SL but can have the option to be a DS, Only New Members approved will be DS ....so the older members will be classed under SL/DS. Similar to a married and maiden name. When the DS or other initials receive positive feed back, you may find others will fall into place.

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This ^

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Its like my grandfathering idea. Keep the current how it is, and evolve the prefix going forward. Keep the current characters the prefix they are in, and grandfather them in. Like the history books, just put an asterisk there for the reasoning.

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I would say use the DS for upcoming and new costumes, characters, and so on. I get the whole trying to correct and update the system, but its like reprinting a book, and changing history that was in the previous edition, because someone didn't like what happened in the past. We all don't like what went down in WW2, but we're not going to correct the history books to reflect Quentin Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds because it had a more appealing outcome.

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In the future, create a team that would be pro-active to possible upcoming costumes. Have a team to review characters as they appear, and then have them pre-designated upon the chance they are costumed, and done. This process could help avoid issues like this in the future, discussions could be pre-done, and could add then to the proper group, and have the group designation pre-ready.

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LeMaxim,

For being relatively new you are hitting the nail on the head.

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Check out this 14 page thread of the Death Watch costumers calling for a more accurate designation.

http://www.501st.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

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(I encourage anyone and everyone to also check it out)

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If you ship to the last page, you will see that I wrote almost the exact post... back in April.

You are also correct in that it is an issue that spans the entire legion classification system.

The SL - Non SL is simply the first to undergo an update as it has the characters which have been called into question the most often and for the most amount of time.

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Does the canon/non-canon issue make a difference?

If it is an already accepted costume within the legion canon/non-canon has no bearing.

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You can read the "Character Approval Guide" here:

http://www.501st.com/databank/Costuming ... erApproval

(More specifically, the part which explains "N: Non-canon, materials")

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I know the DLC was a 're-imagined' storyline but, in that storyline SS is a "Lord" and as such, should be bestowed the SL designation IMHO.

I hear ya', and it is exactly what I mentioned above.

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So what you are saying those who have that the shirts, the license plates, the window decals, the patches, the 'permanent' Tattoos, etc. are SOoL.

Honestly, we can not make decisions and determinations based on those criteria.

Those who have been around long enough will remember "SP - Sandperson".

That was my former designation as a Tusken... Now it is DZ.

Or perhaps when the custom Madalorians were removed from TX. (and the legion altogether)

(TX stands for "Trooper X" and contained all the custom characters)

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** However... Although Non-canon, the "Sith stalker Armor" is an accepted costume within the legion and is referred to as "Lord" within this alternate ending, so I would support that it falls under "SL" and will be happy to take this info back to the rest of the team.

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Here is a Starkiller costume that I own thats approved (its from FU2 ending)

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mymaster_zps0f0b54a6.jpg

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I am still confused as to why Darth Maul is a SL.

He is an apprentice no?

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To quote

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maul

the infant Maul was given by his Nightsister mother to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, who trained him in the ways of the dark side of the Force as his secret apprentice on a secret Mustafar training facility, along with the help of a split personality droid. Maul became a master of Juyo, Jar'Kai, and TerƤs KƤsi, with training in Niman, and chose to wield a red-bladed saberstaff in combat. Though well trained in the ways of the Sith and a Sith assassin rather than a full apprentice, Maul was technically a violation of the Rule of Two because his own Master was at the time apprenticed to another, the Muun Sith Lord Darth Plagueis. Plagueis however, was fully aware of Maul's existence, and supported Sidious's decision to train him. The primary reason for Plagueis's support, despite the violation of the Rule of Two...

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I feel like i could change that Entire sentience i just pulled that from (the wiki) to Starkiller as the story is identical

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I just edited the above ^

"the young Galen was taken as a child by Darth Vader, who trained him in the ways of the dark side of the Force as his secret apprentice in a secret facility, along with the help of a droid. Starkiller became a master of many forms of combat through his brutal training from Lord Vader. Though well trained in the ways of the Sith and a Sith assassin rather than a full apprentice, Starkiller was technically a violation of the Rule of Two because his own Master was at the time apprenticed to another, Darth Sidious. Sidious however, was fully aware of Starkillers existence, and tried to manipulate vader. The primary reason for Sidious, despite the violation of the Rule of Two...

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See a lot of similarities eh?

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I can see Where Damien is coming from ....on paper it is a good idea but it maybe a little late.

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May I suggest this option: example when some CRL's where overhauled previous members had the option of staying as per the original approval or upgraded to match the new recruits, members that are under SL atm are still SL but can have the option to be a DS, Only New Members approved will be DS ....so the older members will be classed under SL/DS. Similar to a married and maiden name. When the DS or other initials receive positive feed back, you may find others will fall into place.

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Pointing out the CRL's the Pathfinders upgraded their requirements for CRL, mine was before the upgrade my son was after, I added to match those around me even thou I didn't have to, this may also be with TKID.

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Just a thought

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I totally agree on this one ;)

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Good morning,

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I took a few days off to address home issues.

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Right now I read folk arguing fiercely for keeping the designation that personally affects them. This is understandable but perhaps premature. Consider, not all current prefixes have been created with the same criteria. I maintain that before the chopping up and reassigning prefix designations that we must come up with guiding rules for how a prefix is applied.

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1. Two lettres need not stand for an intelligible abbreviation

The Legion prefix system could use an overhaul though, I would argue that we did not need the become obsessed with two lettres having to be clear abbreviations for binding descriptions.

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ĀæTK 421 why aren't you at your post?

tk421.jpg

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This scene is the reason why we have prefixes for Legion ID numbers.

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This is why TK stands for Stormtrooper. All other prefixes we made up. In the give and take reality the 501st has influences, now Official LFL media has adopted our designations.

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But no Sith Lord has an ID number in Universe. Nor would any self respecting Jawa, Tusken Raider, or Night Sister. The Legion ID number, at its heart, is clerical. It is good when a prefix makes sense. But some must be viewed with a little flexibility. TK does not somehow work out to be Stormtrooper. We must explain explain the reference, especially to Disney era fans who, may have never seen the SW original trilogy. Remember, while we live and breathe Star Wars, we must understand that some explanation beyond a costume category prefix and name might be required for our most anal fans and members. And that is OK.

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2. Standing prefixes may evolve to mean something beyond the original intent

ĀæWho says TX stands for Trooper X? History perhaps. Back before the purge of custom costumes in the 501st Legion we even had custom sand persons. The Legion charter never included customs, but at one point it did not specifically disallow customs.

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LMO Michael Washko determined that customs were growing out of hand and around 2004 one night went through the database and deactivated several dozen Legion members with custom costumes in the SL and BH categories. Most feel not nearly enough warning was given and some hard feelings were minted. Today we have two new costuming clubs to serve for those SW themed customs, The Dark Empire and The Mandalorian Mercs.

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When Michael Washko stepped down, just before the end of his term, I was asked to step up as LMO. I made it my policy to see costume policy enforced equally throughout the Legion. And the onus of completing the custom purge fell to me.

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TX became Special Operations.

TX.jpg

(I researched to determine the canon appearance of each TX unit. Today some folk insist on referring to Red Stormtroopers by the fan coined ā€œMagma Troopersā€ even though by LFL cannon they were the body guards of Dark Lady Lumiya. Red Stormtrooper armour is what pre-Crimson Empire Royal Guards were supposed to wear when in battle.)

Lumiya_Stormtroopers.JPG

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Here, TX means what we say it means. SL can easily do the same.

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Some food for thought. I must adjourn to gather some food for my body.

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Be well,

Thomas

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I know what you mean about us arguing over the costumes we own. (I am doing it ) =)

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But really its because we are the "experts" ( I guess you could say) in them. The reason why we choose these costumes is (usually) for the back-story and the way we feel about these particular characters. Also yeah, it personally affects us. While all of us are honing in on what or who we could potentially get back I think those of us arguing over the fate of these characters agree that we would like to see them all returned. ^.-

Some are much more arguable than others. Such as why I think you have say..more of some particular characters arguing than others over the detachment designation. I feel as though with a few of these characters we have a fairly strong argument for why he in particular person should not have been removed from the designation.

I am being honest here, I just dont know enough about a number of the characters being asked or argued about :( Also I wouldn't feel comfortable arguing for them because of that.

Where as say myself for example on Starkiller I can tell you just about anything about him, and with say another character I just don't know enough about the intricate backstory :D

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Thank you so much Thomas, we love your hard work!

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Dawn

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LeMaxim,

For being relatively new you are hitting the nail on the head.

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Check out this 14 page thread of the Death Watch costumers calling for a more accurate designation.

http://www.501st.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

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(I encourage anyone and everyone to also check it out)

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If you ship to the last page, you will see that I wrote almost the exact post... back in April.

You are also correct in that it is an issue that spans the entire legion classification system.

The SL - Non SL is simply the first to undergo an update as it has the characters which have been called into question the most often and for the most amount of time.

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Thanks for the historical reference to this issue. I read your post on the last page and I'd say we would be able to have a nice pint or two discussing this. :)

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On a side note regarding the prefixes in referens to their background in one scene (ANH) "TK421, why aren't you at your post" as mentioned by Thomas.

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Being a systems-guy I have had some problem with the assumption that TK = Stormtrooper (as in 501st prefix TK).

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There might be some history to this that I'm not aware of and there might be an explanation why TK got attached to the stormtrooper characters.

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But. Assuming the role of Imperial administrator in charge of creating and assigning ID numbers to the minions of the Empire I would have not create such a wasteful ID.

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First of all I would want all IDs to be equally long. i.e. TK-00421 and TK-12345 as opposed to TK-421 and TK-12345 ... Because it's neater and looks better in a database... ;) So let's assume this square thinking and assuming that the ID consists of 5 characters.

That would give three possible scenarios.

Assuming TKnnn (n = number) would give you the total of 1000 (000-999) unique IDs available for stormtroopers. I'm assuming that the empire had more and even if they reused old ones of no longer active troopers they would have a problem.

If, instead the TK was actually part of the ID (as in LLnnn where L = letter) and not a designation ID for stormtroopers then the available amount of possible unique IDs would reach up to 676.000. A significant improvement to previous 999 but still not enough for the Imperial staff roster. (This would mean that Han Solo's stormtrooper might have had the ID AU879)

If all 5 characters in the ID TK421 would be alphanumerical then the number of possible unique IDs would reach 60.466.176. ... That's more like it. Now I feel I could administrate an army. ;)

(This would mean that Han Solo's stormtrooper might have had the ID 7H9YT)

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Anyway. Just a side note on the clerical issues with the IDs but I'm sure George Lucas et all didn't consider this when naming TK421.

I just like these kinds of things.

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Carry on.

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Hi all

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IĀ“ve just found this site :

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http://www.comicvine.com/visas-marr/4005-47890/

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regarding Visas Marr, saying she was a sith apprentice to Darth Nihilus, which we all know, but it also says

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Quote:

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"She was a very talented Sith Lord and did everything that Nihilus ordered"

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IĀ“ve read a lot about her history and find the facts several places, so it would be fair to put her back into the SL.

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Just my two cents... ;)

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Maul:

He was discussed, but it was pointed out that in the movie, in the scene after Padme begs the Gungans for help, Sidious referrers to him directly as "Lord Maul".

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Visas Marr:

Can you point to the source that ComicVine is pulling that reference from?

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"...should each of Starkiller's costumes be looked at separately due to the time and power/training at which they were worn?"

I would think yes, and is the reason I feel (based on the reference I've shown above) that the Sith Stalker armor should in fact be considered a Sith Lord. This particular incarnation of the character does have valid reference as being referred to as such.

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* In an dedicated effort to find a common ground with those who are the most displeased, like mentioned above, we are currently discussing the pro's and con's of the idea of using a relaxed standard.

This being "Sith -vs- Non-Sith", rather than "Sith Lord -vs- Non-Sith Lord".

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Although "technically" incorrect, (in regard to the term "Sith Lord") it would move several characters back, be they Sith Lord or not.

But, it raises some other issues that would first need to be ironed out.

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About Darth Maul

Darth and Lord are honourifics in Universe, for Star Wars.

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For example there is this introduction quote; ā€This is my apprentice, Darth Maul.ā€

hqdefault.jpg

Please see this link; New Apprentice

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I see argument that both the titles of Lord and Darth can be applied to apprentices in the traditional Star Wars Canon Universe. But I do not really believe anyone would seriously consider moving Darth Maul out of the Sith Lord category.

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Be well,

Thomas

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Haha no no sir I do not. Just a good argument for a number of the Sith Apprentices now in the DS category is all ^.-

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"Darth Bane Path of Destruction" one of the instructors saidĀ "The Darth title was more than just a symbol of power; it was a claim of supremacy. It was used by those Dark Lords who have sought to enforce their will on the other Masters. It was a challenge ā€” a warning to bow down or be destroyed."

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So I just learned a LOT about Sith Lords, Darths and what not.

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I keep coming to the same conclusion.

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A sith apprentice is also a Lord and a sith Lord is also a darth?

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Am I missing something? ?

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sith

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http://www.killermovies.com/forums/arch ... darth.html

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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_apprentice

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Something that has not been mentioned is timeline.

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Through the history meanings change. If you compare Amidala's research to the post I made regarding titles in the Old Republic they very much contradict each other.

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The mention in my post regarding subordinates and inferiors using "My Lord" as an honorific is not indicative of them being in fact a Lord of the Sith.

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However in our own world we see the same thing. The Title "Sir" is often used to honor one's superior, particularly in the military where it is a part of customs and courtesies. Now bear in mind that in my military service there were hundreds, if not thousands of times when a superior of mine would call me Sir. By speculation, one might claim the previously mentioned single line in the movie where Darth Sideous calls Maul "Lord Maul", it could be an honorific used due to the presence of the Neimoidians and to cement his authority over the aliens as a position of command.

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Again, titles change and so do their meanings, over time they can come to mean entirely different things.

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Guest Dark Flower
I can see Where Damien is coming from ....on paper it is a good idea but it maybe a little late.

Ā 

May I suggest this option: example when some CRL's where overhauled previous members had the option of staying as per the original approval or upgraded to match the new recruits, members that are under SL atm are still SL but can have the option to be a DS, Only New Members approved will be DS ....so the older members will be classed under SL/DS. Similar to a married and maiden name. When the DS or other initials receive positive feed back, you may find others will fall into place.

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This ^

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Its like my grandfathering idea. Keep the current how it is, and evolve the prefix going forward. Keep the current characters the prefix they are in, and grandfather them in. Like the history books, just put an asterisk there for the reasoning.

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I would say use the DS for upcoming and new costumes, characters, and so on. I get the whole trying to correct and update the system, but its like reprinting a book, and changing history that was in the previous edition, because someone didn't like what happened in the past. We all don't like what went down in WW2, but we're not going to correct the history books to reflect Quentin Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds because it had a more appealing outcome.

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In the future, create a team that would be pro-active to possible upcoming costumes. Have a team to review characters as they appear, and then have them pre-designated upon the chance they are costumed, and done. This process could help avoid issues like this in the future, discussions could be pre-done, and could add then to the proper group, and have the group designation pre-ready.

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I also agree with these ideas. Grandfathering, The Pro-Active Team for upcoming costumes., DS fine for up-and-coming, not past.

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Guest Dark Flower

Visas Marr:

Can you point to the source that ComicVine is pulling that reference from?

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Here is what I found:

http://www.comicvine.com/visas-marr/4005-47890/

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This is the reference they pull it from: (Comic Star Wars Tales #24)

http://www.comicvine.com/star-wars-tales-24-marked/4000-120980/

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I was trying to find a screen shot reference but was unable. Though if you look at comic #24 on it, it has Maul. I thought Maul and Visas weren't the same time period...however I am guessing the refer to the past?

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I have Star Wars Tales #24.

It is a collection of unrelated short stories.

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The Visas Marr story is titled "Unseen,Unheard" and is 6 pages in length.

Here it is in its entirety:

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Pg1

Pg2

Pg3

Pg4

Pg5

Pg6

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I'm thinking the quote from the ComicVine Wiki might be an internet user's misplaced edit.

Maybe Heavy1973's email reply will have some more info.

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